sunburst

well, newer for me. I've restored a lot of Peugeots, maybe a dozen, and a couple of Motobecanes. Most of them were from the 70's, and two from the 80's.
I bought a mostly stripped frame recently that I cannot date.

It has the "Record du Monde" decal. Is this essentially the same model as the old U-08?

bikemig 

I like this style of simplex deraileur as it works with a suntour or campy derailleur (as well as a simplex derailleur). This could be a PBN 10 which is made of hi tensile steel and was a "racing" bike model. It could be a PKN 10 as well which has a 531 main triangle but I don't see any stickers so I'm guessing a PBN 10 but the chrome fork suggests a little nicer model.

SurferRosa

Is the bb cable guide riveted? You can usually make out some of the serial around the plastic guide.

Paint looks so nice, I'd assume repaint or powder. Looks thick on the rear drops. And the fork looks like a replacement.

verktyg 

It's about a 1984 mid range Peugeot with creatively misapplied early 70's decals and heavy powder coat paint.

Peugeot only used that stupide set screw design for clamping the seatpost in the rear of the seat tube for a year or two! Problem is that the set screw mungs the seatpost so that it becomes difficult to adjust the height!

Then they came out with a plus stipide ATAX seat post with an internal expander to clamp the seatpost in the seat tube much like a stem! The expander plug can cause the thin wall seat tube to bulge. They only used those for a few years too.

Peugeot also used and equally stupide brazed in front derailleur mount made for a special Simplex derailleur. I've seen pictures of a Huret FD to fit this too.



IS IT WRONG OR JUST FRENCH?



Those Simplex dropouts were good. They came out in the late 70's and were used up to the late 80's. They have an industry standard Campy style derailleur hanger.

The headset is a standard Peugeot model not a Stronglight. They were pretty good too and I never saw any that needed to be replaced.

Most of the frames with those "features" were decent quality and made of Reynolds, Vitus or Super Vitus tubing.

Should be a nice riding bike.

verktyg

T-Mar

As noted, this should be a 1984 model. Peugeot eliminated the traditional cinch bolt from some modes for 1984 and 1985 but the 1985 models used an internally expanding seat post as opposed to the grub screw. of 1984.

This feature was only found of three steel frames in the USA market: PZ10, PSV10 and PGN10. Of these three, only the PGN10 had fender eyelets on the rear dropouts. However, that is not a positive ID, as these could have been added by the previous owner, given the repaint and addition of rack bosses on the upper stays. Still, it doesn't appear to be designed for recessed brake bolts, which also has me leaning towards a PGN10 with Reynolds 501.

bertinjim 

T-Mar -


You are likely right on the PGN 10 id. The rear Simplex dropouts have the OEM machined relief in the back for a retaining nut and are not add-ons like the seatstay rack bolts.

T-Mar

Good point. I had not noticed the relief. Thxs for posting.

francophile 

Just a couple observations since everyone already pointed out the one-year 1984 seat post braze-on which gives you an exact date. T-Mar listed off the models it could be.

1) Bike has been stripped and powder-coated, you can tell by the lug joints and the "SIMPLEX" being muddied up.
2) Bike is re-decal'd to look like an earlier model than it is
3) Peugeot never used a red that saturated on any of the 70s year bikes, one of the first uses of that red color I recall is the Peugeot Nice
4) That's a gnarly little ding in the TT, drive side
5) It's entirely possible there are other modifications (or repairs) to the frame not visible under the powdercoat
6) My trusty PGN10 has a braze-on to hold the FD onto the tube, so if this is a PGN10, that's been removed.
Edit for 7) TT cable guides removed also, so maybe (6) isn't impossible ... curious, what's the seat tube diameter?

Still cool looking, though. Interesting choices were made. Also curious, what numbers are embossed/stamped on the bottom bracket?

francophile 

Reference pics. This is from my '84 PGN10, which is back in the rebuild queue again.

sunburst

thanks for all the great info. Lots of experience on this sub-forum, and lots of eagle eyes.




To respond to the various points people mentioned here is additional info:





I see it has a "lightrace" headset, not "stronglight" like I first thought.


The fork does not appear to support a recessed brake bolt.


The rack mounts on the seat stays appear to have been tacked on later, as someone mentioned.


The seatpost is 26.4mm and the stem is the French 22.0mm.


The BB is a sealed shimano unit. Don't know if Peugeot shipped it that way or if it was changed later.


From the Peugeot catalog, it wasn't shipped with the Stronglight crank.


I'm guessing it's an '85 because the '84 didn't come in 58cm.




Catalog entry: 1984 Peugeot PGN 10





And now I know why that paint with those decals looked so unique. Judging from the original decals in the catalog, my son had a Peugeot from that era and it was a nice bike. I also see that "Record du Monde" was a red herring since the decals were changed. The power coating explains why the touched up areas are a perfect match. The seller and I were both surprised by that.





A few more pix:

John E

I presume the seat tube outer diameter is hard metric 28.0mm. What diameter seat post does it take? This will help separate a higher-quality butted frame from one of its more humble brethren.

francophile 

Just to expand on this ...

That's one of the JPR (J.P. Routens) Extra Legere seat posts. @sunburst if you find at the minimum insertion line designated with ///////////////////////////////////// marks, you'll see faint engraved markings with pertinent info. You may need to take a crayon across it to really make the letters pop. Or maybe take a little ultrafine bronze wool to clean up some rust.

I don't remember what the one directly below the insertion marks is, but below that you'll see MADE IN FRANCE and just below that, even fainter is Ø 26.x (where X is the 1st decimal place of the seat post diameter). If your main three tubes are Reynolds 531, I expect Ø 26.4 to be on the post.

Interesting tidbit: If you look closer to the bottom, a centimeter or two below the seatpost diameter Ø markings, you should find a pair of two-digit markings giving the month and date of manufacture on that seat post. Like .... 03 84 would be March 1984.

sunburst

Seatpost = 26.4mm
Date code 12 83

Seat tube outer dia = 28.6mm

francophile 

The highest likelihood here is you've got a 1984 PGN10 that's been significantly (but not radically) modified. I say this because I don't think the Vitus tubing would have same seat tube diameter (can't remember offhand) and I can't imagine anyone doing this to a PZ/PX/PY.

Reynolds 501 frame and fork for that model. Specs here.

Modifications I can clearly see are the removal of the top tube cable guides, the derailleur provision on the seat tube (probably removed and filled), thick red powdercoat, repaint on the fork, decals from 8-10 years (and earlier) prior applied.

It's still attractive. I own one and won't lie: I know it's a mid-level bike but I've owned it longer than just about any other bike I've got, I've rebuilt it twice now and it's on round three, I absolutely loved riding it over the years. I think a couple others here (Chombi, at least?) also have one they keep around.

I did find it was easier to mark the seat post pinch point and drill an indent there to prevent slippage though.

sunburst

This seatpost does have a couple of indents, so someone else knew this trick.

Hmm, so I need some top tube clamp-on cable guides. I wonder if this had been a fixie for a while. Why else would anyone remove the guides? Fashion?

So, how do you measure frame size, because the '84 catalog does not show 58cm? I measure center of crank to center of top tube. My local bike coop measures to the top of top tube. If that's the correct way, maybe this is a 60.

One last question, my main grocery hauler is a mid-80s (I'm guessing) Peugeot with 103 tubing (and looong chainstays!). How does 103 compare to the Reynolds 501? Last time I searched I don't remember finding any definitive info on 103. Now that I think about, I've got two frames with 103.

francophile 

Huh, just realized I failed to list they'd removed the downtube lever bosses too. Yet they left the bottle provisions. And they added rack provisions on the seat stays, missed that before too.

And yes, as far as the removals, probably multi-purpose: Help the bike look older than it actually is, make it sleeker for fixie use. The circular gouges where the rear wheel sides in drive side dropout would suggest the kind of pressure/wear you'd see from a fixed rear wheel vs. something wheel with a QR.

CTT measure (vs. CTC) would be what you'd see in the catalog.

Carbolite 103 tubing (aka Carbolite+ in some places) is a thicker,walled heavier tubing used on cheaper bikes. Per catalog specs, you'll find most of the Carbolite tubed bikes weigh at least 2-3 pounds more than any Reynolds 501 or better frames. There is also a model one level below this - I think the PH501? - that uses a Reynolds 501 main triangle, but Carbolite 103 fork, if I recall.

T-Mar

During this era, Peugeot measured their frames from the centre of the bottom braclet shell to the top of the seat tube. Consequently, it's probaly a 60cm frame.

It's definitely not a 1985 model. As noted in my early post, the grub/set screw on the back of the seat tube was dropped at the end of the 1984 model year, in favour of an internally expanding seat post for the 1985 model year. The grub/set screw as seen on your frame, was only used for the 1984 model year.

bertinjim 

sunburst -

Reynolds 501 has butted main tubes of .9/.6 mm and stays of .9 mm. Peugeot 103 has plain gauge 1.2 mm thickness and stays of about 1.0 mm. Detailed 103 measurement info here: https://peugeotcoursepb12.wordpress....-assessment-3/ I have found a 1 lb 10 oz to 1 lb 14 oz difference between full 531 framesets and 103 built framesets.

T-Mar

The Super Vitus of the PSV10 would use the has the same inner diameter as the Reynolds 501 of the PGN10, while the Reynolds 531C and 531SL of the PX10 and PZ10 respectively, would have a slightly larger inner diameter and use a larger seat post. Also, the PSV10, PX10 and PZ10 being higher than the PGN10, all used recessed brake bolts and did not have drop-out eyelets. The OP"s frame was designed for exposed brake bolts and has droput eyelets, consistent with a PGN10. As noted by @bertinjim, these eyelets would appear to be OEM based on the recessed flats on the medial side.

T-Mar

A PH501 can be easily eliminated as a candidate, as it employed lugless construction. The fork could be be either Carbolite 103 (1985) or Reynolds 501 (1986-1987) but the stays were always Carbolite 103. The lugless construction eliminated most of the weight penalty of the heavier Carbolite 103, as well as being less expensive to manufacture.

francophile 

Sorry about that @T-Mar I wasn't trying to be confusing with my PH501 comment up there or suggest it's a possible candidate. Only intended to point out to OP that Peugeot mixed-and-matched Reynolds and Carbolite on at least one model because he asked about Carbolite vs. Reynolds. Seemed like a fun tie-in.

PH501 always stood out to me as a sort of "brackish water" bike. Not totally Reynolds ("salt of the earth") but also not totally Carbolite ("ordinary as fresh water").

(PS - thanks for the clarification on V/SV tubing ID)

sunburst

OK then, it's a 60cm 1984 PGN 10. I'm very impressed to get this detailed info. Thx everybody!

I justed checked out my grocery hauler, same frame size, but the top tube and chainstays are about 1" longer. Not sure if the PGN 10 frame will be very rack friendly with the shorter stays.

Anyway, here is my 103 frame that I'd like to date and identify. I've got two with this tubing, with and without lugs. And I can't even find a model decal for the white/blue one.

This has been my main utility bike for 15 years or so. It was pretty much a wreck when I got it. It is a very stable and comfortable bike (technically too large for me), and handles rough roads with effortless aplomb.

francophile 

Without seeing the serial number from under the BB on each one, often in format of Y## ##### or B## ##### (if memory serves, that's correct for a lot of the '80s bikes) it will be impossible to nail down an exact year.

But for a WAG, the silver is very low-end model (hence the stamped rear dropout) but I can't recall if the "Course" designation is UO8 or UO9. These and the Grand Sports are everywhere. Approximate year will be 1980 - 81 +/- a year or two.

The pearl white one is a couple years older - talking 1983-85. The seat tube collar is probably a dead giveaway of the exact model, but looks like a P10 variant - P10S, PH10, something along those lines. I don't remember seeing a P6/P8 model with those cheaper forged dropouts. I think that style of Nervar crank showed up around 84?

sunburst

Btw, WAG?

francophile 

Wild Ass Guess.

PS @sunburst note the silver frame has the more-sought-after Simplex Criterium shift levers. Can't quite tell which FD you've got on there. If Delrin isn't cracked, may be something interesting to another person. Granted, it also may crack the minute the buyer installs it, too ... That's one of those parts I like to toss up in the "pay-it-forward" thread that's randomly floating around or in the "ISO-trade" thread that's stickied to the top of the forum list.