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Does anyone know who may have made this?

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Does anyone know who may have made this?

Old 12-23-19, 07:01 PM
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rgppgr
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Does anyone know who may have made this?


Bike had sew ups when I bought it late 70's. It's +/- 23 lbs. now with clinchers.


Straight seat tube top

No brazeing

Brooks on 26.8 post

Campy front drop out

Low clearance for 26" front wheel 28x700c

Campy rear drop out

A drop bolt rear brake

Stamped 52 and 269
Purchased used in the later 70's. It weighs 23 lbs. +/- now. Weight was less on purchase with sew ups. I've been told that was light in that period. I have contacted CONDOR who said it's not theirs. It does resemble one of theirs. The Italian pro racing model from their 50's catalog. The stamped numbers on the BB are 52 for the size and 269.

Last edited by rgppgr; 12-23-19 at 07:18 PM. Reason: add photo
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Old 12-23-19, 07:25 PM
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-----


modest "production" frameset

at first glance the combination of lugs and bridges reminded me of the Sears Steyr 531DB bikes produced ca. 1968-71 under contract. iirc they were badged as Ted Williams. as recalled, they did not come with Campag ends however.

if BB thread BSC I would think a contract build from Styria (Steyr/Puch/Austro-Daimler) might be a possibility.

date estimate: 1968

do not think it could be of British or of French origin

suspect kitting not original

brakeset certainly not - note dropbolt

@MauriceMoss shall be able to identify...

if you make investigations on your own would suggest ignoring kitting and focus solely on frame...

the joinery where taper tubes meet frame ends is a helpful clue

it would help readers if you could give the frame's threading

very fine job with the pictures BTW

-----

Last edited by juvela; 12-24-19 at 07:28 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 12-23-19, 07:45 PM
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Three frames painted the same each with different kitting. This one is full Campy. One was Dia Compe and one I can't remember. Suntour I believe.
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Old 12-24-19, 09:08 AM
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-----

You mention contacting Condor who say it is not theirs.

Did you contact Condor CH or UK?

There was a third Condor badge at one time; that was located in the U.S. but back in the golden age.

---

note on Condor UK -

have not previously seen these vinyl transfers on a Condor UK frame. which of course does not mean they were never employed

Condor UK is famous for their bespoke frames, especially ones with themes, such as their Battle Of Hastings effort. Also frames done for celebrities with themes relating to their fame.

This frame is so simple and modest one might at first think it could not have come from them.

In about 1979 purchased a new Condor (UK) road frameset at a flea market. One could see it had never been assembled into a cycle and had just a bit of shop wear. It was so rough and crudely done was surprised they let it out of the premises wearing Condor transfers.

Mention it only that rather plain ones do exist.

A number of builders have worked there through the years. If the person who responded to your inquiry were young and had only been there a short time they might not have recognised it. After all, frame is roughly fifty years old...


-----
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Old 12-24-19, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by juvela
-----

You mention contacting Condor who say it is not theirs.

Did you contact Condor CH or UK?

There was a third Condor badge at one time; that was located in the U.S. but back in the golden age.

---

note on Condor UK -

have not previously seen these vinyl transfers on a Condor UK frame. which of course does not mean they were never employed

Condor UK is famous for their bespoke frames, especially ones with themes, such as their Battle Of Hastings effort. Also frames done for celebrities with themes relating to their fame.

This frame is so simple and modest one might at first think it could not have come from them.

In about 1979 purchased a new Condor (UK) road frameset at a flea market. One could see it had never been assembled into a cycle and had just a bit of shop wear. It was so rough and crudely done was surprised they let it out of the premises wearing Condor transfers.

Mention it only that rather plain ones do exist.

A number of builders have worked there through the years. If the person who responded to your inquiry were young and had only been there a short time they might not have recognised it. After all, frame is roughly fifty years old...


-----
I spoke with the UK and it was a younger person. He also asked others around him to look at the pictures. A nice gentleman on another forum said the same about that. He also mentioned a rider of theirs may have asked them to paint a favorite bike of his with their name. The campy dropouts and light weight was enough for me to never question the make for all these years. Although the straight cut seat tube top always stuck out.
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Old 12-24-19, 09:50 AM
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I also mentioned the Italian race bike they made that's in their 50s catalog. That bike is the only one with the CONDOR spelled in all capital letters like mine. I understand it's just a decal that could be purchased I'm sure. I wondered if they also cut the threads Italian on a 70mm bb?
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Old 12-24-19, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rgppgr
I wondered if they also cut the threads Italian on a 70mm bb?
Speaking of that, are you saying it has a 70mm BB shell?
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Old 12-24-19, 10:58 AM
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Thank you for the continues information. And yes I was not so interested in the "kitting" as the three bikes were different in that respect. My bad for not identifying the BB as Italian 70mm.
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Old 12-24-19, 01:17 PM
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-----


Thank you for this additional information.

An Italian dimension shell "pretty much" limits it to an Italian origin.

There have been some cycles made in Mexico and in the U.S. (Eisentraut for example) done with Italian dimension shells. Doubt it comes from one of those producers.

The combination of lugs, shell, crown and ends treatment should give the ID to MauriceMoss .

-----
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Old 12-25-19, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mad Honk
Not really, the BB could have been re-tapped for It. sizing. IE: making the frame fit the kit for it. The peeling decal suggests a re-painting and re-decal set on it. I would look more toward some change over from a lower end frame re-fitted with a Campy set up. And why would it have touring lugs on it? JMHO, MH
I've wondered about the decals peeling. Some things about it are puzzling. The straight top seat tube, peeling decals, re-paint. The low serial, light weight and campy drop outs are something else. Three bikes with the same qualities from Joplin Mo. in the 70s. I have no idea how old they were when I bought them. The guy probably told me but I've forgot.
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Old 12-25-19, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rgppgr
Three frames painted the same each with different kitting. This one is full Campy. One was Dia Compe and one I can't remember. Suntour I believe.
Back in the day (1986) I acquired an abandoned Sears Free Spirit that had lugs just like in your photos. It had Reynolds 531 tubing, Suntour dropouts, and an overlong top tube on a 56cm c-to-t frame. It had the original pea soup green paint job. I rode that bike for about five years and it made me appreciate Reynolds 531 tubing.
I researched the origin of the frame and the best I could come up with at the time was Austro-Diamler. As always YMMV
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Old 12-25-19, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Unapomer
Back in the day (1986) I acquired an abandoned Sears Free Spirit that had lugs just like in your photos. It had Reynolds 531 tubing, Suntour dropouts, and an overlong top tube on a 56cm c-to-t frame. It had the original pea soup green paint job. I rode that bike for about five years and it made me appreciate Reynolds 531 tubing.

I researched the origin of the frame and the best I could come up with at the time was Austro-Diamler. As always YMMV
That's interesting. I don't know what the drop outs were on the other two "Condor" bikes in this deal. This frame fit me and had the Campa installed. I put together three or four other bikes to sell and pay off the loan. I was able to get into this one on the cheap. A friend owned a bike shop and he told me about which parts were good. I still don't know a lot about vintage frames or frames in general. I either like the bike or not. If it fits my needs I buy it. My grand daughters ride some rough roads so I didn't want to ride this. As luck would have it I found a Cannondale Beast of the East for $30 so I can go anywhere with them now. This frame thing is something else. I had no idea people did this sort of thing. Counterfeit bicycles! I'll see if I can research Austro-Diamler. The serial number 269 is low, right?
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Old 12-26-19, 12:25 AM
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The graphics package just looks 70's
the frame earlier

i have not seen that stay end treatment but is a strong style indicator

most probably Italian

the seat lug is quite basic. Some Italian brands in the 60's still finished the top straight.... the fork crown is not detailed in images but is also distinctive.

this one is tough
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Old 12-26-19, 04:06 AM
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There was a Swiss made Condor brand. The dropout treatment on the forks and stays looks Swiss to me. The lugs look like some very old Cinelli style.

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Old 12-26-19, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
The graphics package just looks 70's
the frame earlier

i have not seen that stay end treatment but is a strong style indicator

most probably Italian

the seat lug is quite basic. Some Italian brands in the 60's still finished the top straight.... the fork crown is not detailed in images but is also distinctive. I know nothing about stay end treatment. I wonder if the 269 means it was made in Feb. of 69?

this one is tough
It looked new when I bought them in the 70s so the graphics make sense. The BB is Italian. That's new info on the seat lug.
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Old 12-26-19, 09:43 AM
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Thank you. I'll look for Swiss made Condor dropouts and old Cinelli lugs.
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Old 12-26-19, 04:56 PM
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I looked into 60's Italian frames and they look a lot like mine. The lugs are just slightly different so far. A few have straight seat lugs. Does anyone know it an Italian frame maker would stamp the month and year the bike was made? As in 2= February and 69= 1969.
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Old 12-29-19, 09:01 AM
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Looks like a PUCH
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Old 12-29-19, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by vintageracer
Looks like a PUCH
I've looked at them but haven't found one that matches. Is there a site that has pictures of 60's Italian bike frames? One with close ups of lugs would be great. Did you see a PUCH frame that matched mine?
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Old 12-29-19, 10:18 AM
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The brass fills on the 3 main lugs would not be present on any production frame. Handwork by a builder with skill and an eye. The shaping of stay ends could imaginably be reproduced if someone had ever created tooling to do that. But if they had done so we all would have seen examples of the beast before. This is a pure handmade frame.
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Old 12-29-19, 10:39 AM
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Just noticed the overlapping plate at top of seat stay. Very distinctive and very fine work.
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Old 12-29-19, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert
Just noticed the overlapping plate at top of seat stay. Very distinctive and very fine work.
I don't follow you about the brass fills on the three main lugs. They black pin striping is all I see. Not much of a fill I'm used to. Good eye on the seat stay overlap. A nice gentleman from STEALISREAL (he told me about this forum) thought in could be a small batch handmade frame. That could explain the serial number. I never thought a person could buy tubing, lugs, BB, etc. and build a frame. If that's the case I can see the person chuckle to him self as he marked the bike as English having put an Italian BB on it. I'm trying to find at least one of the other two bikes that came with this one. It's serial number should tell something. Thank you.
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Old 12-29-19, 12:23 PM
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A bike lug is shaped as two tubes meeting at an angle. The junction of the two tubes is a crotch which is usually fairly sharp. Some lugs less so but none with a smooth transition as your lugs have. Builder made a small fillet of brass and then sanded smooth. It's not just fill and smooth, there is sculpture happening there. This is a craftsman. Your seatlug looks a lot like best Italian frames of 50s and early 60s though I agree with others here about later 60s. The luglining is amateurish and who knows when that happened.

The fine overlap on seatstay cap is a Swiss feature. So is the shaping on stay ends. All very distinctive. Swiss builders did use Italian shells. Going back far enough Italian builders might have used Swiss looking features. Were this Italian I think someone would have had a positive ID by now.
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Old 12-29-19, 02:50 PM
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Thank you for the lesson. I thought the lugs were cast. I took a glass to the joints and sure enough I can see small imperfections consistent with brazing. Best seen was the top tube at both ends. So it looks more and more like someone tried their hand a frame building back in the late 60's. I'm still thinking the serial says that. Feb. of 69 or their second frame built in 69. So all the material needed to build a frame could be bought back then to build your frame? If so, can that still be done? Could someone in Joplin Mo. have built them?
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Old 12-29-19, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rgppgr
Thank you for the lesson. I thought the lugs were cast. I took a glass to the joints and sure enough I can see small imperfections consistent with brazing. Best seen was the top tube at both ends. So it looks more and more like someone tried their hand a frame building back in the late 60's. I'm still thinking the serial says that. Feb. of 69 or their second frame built in 69. So all the material needed to build a frame could be bought back then to build your frame? If so, can that still be done? Could someone in Joplin Mo. have built them?
Some lugs were cast. That one occurred to me just after posting and I wondered if juvela would step in to correct me. Cast lugs required large amounts of labor to be made presentable and even more to look as good as your lugs. Sometimes they would even need brass to fill in voids. But shape of your lugs looks more to me like pressed lugs plus fill.

All the tubes and bits and bobs needed to build frames were available then and are still available. Frames can be built in a very small shop by a single person. Just conceivable someone in Joplin was building but if they were it would probably be very well known. Late 60s about the only American building was Oscar Wastyn. And of course Schwinn Paramounts. Wastyn did not do that one.
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