Allez3

deadzone

Okay somebody was saying that DI2 shifts faster than downtube, which I can't say for sure since I have not used them. But based on basic engineering and mechanics it is highly doubtful because they are calibrated to shift on cog at a time by a button push meaning switching 3 gears in one shot would be impossible, just like regular STI. So for switching multiple cogs at a time, the 9 speed DT system is by far the most precise and efficient I have ever used (I have "direct experience" with 8-11 speed STI bikes).

jefnvk

Again, for under $100, anyone that wants them can have them:
https://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-SL7900-10SP-Down-Tube-Shifter-Pair-10-Speed
https://www.jensonusa.com/Problem-Solvers-Downtube-Shifter-Mount-Black-318mm-Clamp-With-Shims-For-286

When shifting anything but from one end of the cassette to the other, how is removing our hands from where they already are sitting, moving them to the downtube, and flipping a lever exactly the amount of detents you want more efficient than pressing a button once or thrice and never once moving your hand?

Maelochs

It cracks me up when people wrack their brains to make logical arguments to debate a non-logical premise.

livedarklions

First, you're just lying about the post you were quoting. It didn't say that. The word dangerous doesn't appear in it, and it's just a list of things you can't do when you're shifting with a dt.
Second, if the things I mentioned above aren't problems, why is your statement about the peloton in the past tense? I too have over 40 years experience on multigear bikes. Is our age supposed to be impressive?
Third, I don't use "granny gears", but I don't see why you think that is a bad thing, or who you think you are to make such judgments. Did it ever occur to you that there are other reasons to ride other than proving how tough you are?

And btw, you rather obviously don't know what a straw man argument is. Suggest you actually figure that out before you try to use the phrase again.

ksryder

Nice. This ridiculous thread has now surpassed my previous favorite ridiculous thread in page length: https://www.bikeforums.net/general-c...l-what-15.html

(Except that thread, the ridiculousness was intentional.)

livedarklions

Great. Now we have to argue about whether presta valve caps should be kept on the downtube.

ksryder

If I use presta valve caps on my carbon fiber frame with downtube shifters can I still use disc brakes if I'm running tubeless, or do I need a triple unless I'm going to incorporate weight lifting into my training regimen?

livedarklions

None of this gets answered unless you use the correct lube. And wave.

Ironfish653

deadzone

Yes, they are not an expensive modification as I have already mentioned. I've seen them for $80 on ebay. Some jackwagon on here was complaining that it was too expensive to change to DT. Wait that was you.

Regarding speed of shifting, you are assuming that the rider with STI literally has his hands on the levers in shifting position at all times. That is not a realistic assumption. I certainly don't have my hands on the top of hoods for standard riding. I normally have to move my hand first to reach the levers, then for each cog there is a mechanical delay before shifting to the next cog, etc. With DT shifters, I can move 2,3 or 4 cogs with a single hand swipe. That is simply not possible with STI. You can argue all you want but again you don't have both systems to compare. I actively ride 9 and 10 speed both STI and down tube so I know exactly how they perform.

jefnvk

You use lube? Falling into big oil's marketing, I see

I have my hands on the hoods far more than I have them near the downtube, as I suspect most of the cycling population does. And glad to see were back to not being able to comment on anything unless you own it. Glad you have the cash and room to keep around systems that benefit you in no way.

If you have such extensive knowledge of the systems, though, you do know most STIs offer the ability to at least downshift more than one gear at a time, if not both directions (depending on the particular shifter), right? And that Shimano eshifting allows programming for all sorts of things, including dumping throught he entire range with a single press, and things that you cant do without electronics like one button sifting the front and corresponding rear shifting, right? https://www.rideshimano.com/global/e...2-with-E-Tube/

And in an case, I can still do all of with DT can with bar ends, without the significant disadvantage of having to reach between my legs to shift.

Maelochs

I offer my my sincere (and it is rare I am even within hailing distance of sincere here) and heartfelt appreciation to @livedarklions and @ksryder for those two posts. That is a level of comprehension, theory synthesis, and clear expression rarely seen anywhere and surely the best I have seen on BF.

Posts #389 and #390 will forevermore appear in every lexicon of vernacular to explain the phrase "Nailed it."

Those nails went right through the hearts and deep into the soul of this site.

Every poster was pierced likewise.

Chapeau, gentlemen.

deadzone

Yes, somebody's opinion on something they have never used is pretty useless. Regarding money, if $80 is a lot of money to you, then I feel sorry for your economic situation, perhaps you should spend more time working and less time commenting on this site.

Back to the shifting performance, no STI system allows downshifting 3 cogs in single action. Perhaps Campy ergo you could, I used that like 20years ago so can't remember so well. The key to this is that at the high pedaling cadence that would warrant multiple downshifts at once, the multiple individual clicks force a major disruption in the pedaling action. Either you have to significantly slow down your cadence or deal with a very clunky revolution. Either way it disrupts power and efficiency. With DT, you time the shift as the pedal reaches the bottom of the stroke and can instantly shift 3 or 4 cogs without minimal disruption to the pedal stroke.

ksryder

Merci.

But we couldn't have done it without the dozens (OK, one, actually) of posters who took this ridiculous thread, pushed it right up to it's most ridiculous limits, and then said "screw it" and took a flying pole-vault over those limits into some sort of alternate dimension bizzarro-world that can only exist on BF because surely no one in the real world actually thinks this way.

Those are the true heroes.

livedarklions

Kind of gives me a lump in my throat and a swelling in my chest.

I should probably get both of those looked at.

livedarklions

I only use the purest fat from the hips of infant unicorns on my chains. And I buy it directly from goop.com, not "big oil".

livedarklions

Well, that took care of my irony deficiency for the day.

mstateglfr 

I would love to hear more about the bold underlined comment. It appears you are saying wide range drivetrains are for the weak to look strong, but I want to hold off and know for sure before laughing.

mstateglfr 

So this has been explained many times over in this thread. I may have originally called a change to downtubes 'expensive' or 'not cheap' or something along those lines, so Ill go ahead and yet again clarify how that can be correct and the person still be in a financially sound position in life.

Ready?

Here we go!

$80 is not expensive for many in this hobby when its compared to buying a new bike or a new wheelset. $80 is expensive for many(that I know) who ride for fun and have no interest in tinkering.
Once again, making a switch has to be motivational based for most. This is true of most any products in life. If what someone has works and is enjoyed, the desire to change is very low for most. There will always be outliers who enjoy trying different things for the sake of trying, but that is the minority.
Its a losing game to try and convince a ton of people to go away from the shifting setup you have and instead use something different, even though their current systems work just fine. And fewer will want it when you show them the new brake levers are shaped differently from what they currently have. All for what...an experiment that they werent interested in to begin with?
Yeah...thats tough to convince people of.

Furthermore, anyone that doesnt like it will then have to switch back. Not a big deal for tinkerers, but those that cant do it on their own will need to again use a shop.

So yeah, when its $80 to try something people dont have a motivation to try, its a relatively high cost.

livedarklions

Or, to put it another way, $1 is expensive for a rancid pound of meat.

jefnvk

$80 for one system, sure. Now, take every system currently produced, frames for them all, and I'm looking at an entire bike stores worth of cost and inventory just to talk in general about different systems according to your rules. Not to mention, currently owning a DT setup, why would I change up one of my preferred systems to one I know I don't just to get two more gears on teh off chance that somehow makes a difference???

Sorry for thinking that currently owning a 5 speed stem friction shift, a 7 speed downtube shift, a 7 speed trigger shift with trekking bars, a 9 speed DA and a 10 speed Microshift bar end setup, and a 10 speed Shimano flat bar trigger shift, and having owned a 7 speed STI and mechanically taking care of and having ridden my wife's 9 and 10 speed STI setups isn't enough of a knowledge base to draw from.

masi61

Maybe someone could message the original poster of this thread and bring him back into the conversation now that we are over 400 responses and that person is no-where to be found.

I had typed up a story about how most of my riding over my lifetime has been on road bikes that have down tube shifters. My public computer logged me out and my paragraph about this went "poof" into thin air.

What I written about was how shifting with down tube levers for so long, this format of shifting becomes hard wired into your muscle memory. Strangely, it is when we are most fatigued that we revert back to what we know most intuitively.

So when reaching for my STI, I sometimes accidentally reach down as if to shift down tube levers that - aren't even there!

deadzone

Sorry I'm fairly certain this will also anger the majority of folks here but I have to agree that another fad that annoys me is the compact cranks. People have gone too far with the Lance Armstrong high cadence climbing thing. I am a semi-overweight middle aged man and climb rather large hills daily and I can't fathom needing any lower granny gears than 39-25 for everyday riding. Roadies today are being "sissified" by this trend and it is kind of sad watching these guys that look other wise healthy yet they are spinning up relatively short climbs at 120RPM in some mt bike granny gear.

deadzone

Clearly you don't like DT shifters, but why discourage others from trying? And seems strange that you ride several bikes with DT and ride bar-end which has some of the same advantages, yet you insist on arguing about what a bad idea they are? Hard to take you seriously.
Point is the target market for DT is and will always be tinkerers that want to try something different. Some of these posters just think DT is complete garbage, dangerous, etc which is totally BS. The 9/10 speed Shimano DT systems are outstanding and I am certain that all the folks here crapping on them here have never even tried them.