(indexed) Downtube shifters should make comeback
01-05-19, 08:55 PM
#501
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Rolling lol at this thread ... it is almost of A&S quality now.
01-05-19, 09:03 PM
#502
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You can wax poetical about it all you want. When I move my 7 speed 600 Tricolor lever, the shift moves smooth, confidently, and instantaneously, in such a manner that I question anyone that claims something can be so much better as to be on a completely different playing field. In the same way, my 9 speed DA bar ends, which are the functional equivalent of 9 speed DA DT shifters, do the exact same with an indiscernible feel. You insist I can't know because I don't know the system, but it is the same system packaged in a different location, a change which does not affect the shifting performance you love. I can literally take them off the bar ends and mount them on the DT (if I cared to buy a new rear wheel that fit a 9 spd) and experience your setup, but I don't need to, because my mind can extrapolate what it is going to feel like just fine.
01-05-19, 09:18 PM
#503
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I never once argued that DT shifters should or would ever be mainstream. People are used to the convenience of the STI shifters so most will never give that up (including me). I did point out that they are becoming fashionable in the form of vintage/old beater bikes among young people which indicates that the DT shifting is maybe not as horribly inconvenient as we thought it was. I also pointed out that I am very impressed with the shifting performance of the 9 speed Dura Ace DT shifter which along with the complete DA group outperforms both my 9 and 10 speed STI Dura Ace shifters in many ways. But unless you actually compare a 9 or 10 speed DT vs. STI directly you can't really understand what I'm talking about. If your DT experience is limited to 7 or 6 speed then it is comparing apples to oranges as those groups are inferior to Dura Ace 9 and 10 in numerous ways that impact overall riding experience.
Saying DT's are becoming more popular because bikes of a certain era are becoming popular (most likely because they're cheap / free) is a false equivalency.
It's not like these 'college kids' were riding Synapses and Domanes with Ultegra and Dura-Ace in HS, then decided that they really wanted a Miyata 912.
Most likely, they're riding these old bikes because they were given to them, or were bought for very cheap.
The other thing that's so frustrating about your continued argument, is that no matter what experience on DT and STI bikes we collectively have, that because none of us seem to own both a 10-speed DuraAce DT bike and a 10-speed DA STI bike, that we are unable to see the sublime distinctions between them.
Well, you are a cyclist of unpeerable taste and distinction; Chapeau to you, sir, and may your sock lines forever be razor sharp.
01-05-19, 09:28 PM
#504
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Just curious how many steep climbs you do on a regular basis and which gearing you are using on your personal bike?
I have no mountains in my area, just lots of climbs and descents in and around all the rivers in my area. I have a road triple (Ultegra 6603 - 53/39/30 chainrings) combined with a 9 speed 12/23 cassette. I’m 56 and just under 200# so yeah -call me middle age and overweight. If I decide to go out on my group rides aggressive with the climbing, I’m one of the better climbers out there. Sometimes I go into my 30 tooth chainring and monitor my cadence as I climb. If it doesn’t drop much below 85, my legs stay fresher.
When Lance was in his prime and he came back from testicular cancer much more lightweight (and doped on EPO and blood transfusions) his climbing rhythm was a thing of beauty. For all the many switchbacks of the famous Alpine stages like Galibier and such climbing specialists really need to keep their cadence reasonably high to keep the muscles flushed out and stay aerobic for the most part. If you compared the wattage output of “Big Mig” in the old style macho racing gears with the slightly lower gear ratios Lance was spinning in the early 2000’s - my guess of who would be pumping out more watts is that Lance was... And now Froome is spinning even lower ratios which makes gauging his athleticism against these past greats not obvious. He looks all bony and super skinny which goes against what we idealize in a champion but probably his power output is right up there with all the other greats.
So when riding steep climbs with talented ride partners, dropping into low spinning gears does permit some recovery. But clearly if you are out there seated, spinning a baby 30x__ gear casually while the light strong climbers attack - the outcome is going to be that you have just been dropped.
Some of the previous posts were spot on. Part of what dictates spinning more or less on climbs is your body type and muscular structure. Optimum power vs cadence is going to differ for different people. Lance and Froome like high cadence, Greg Lemond had more pure power, you could see it in his beefy muscular legs compared to Lance and especially Froome who have twig legs for cyclists. If you take doping out of the equation, I doubt Lance or Froome could generate more power than Lemond. Lemond also won many a sprint finish in his day so was certainly a more rounded rider than Lance or Froome.
01-05-19, 09:34 PM
#505
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I think we went over this back around post #240 or so. 'Ten-Speed' era bikes are popular with young people because they're from the '70s and '80s, not because they have DT shifters, but because they're OLD. If you want to ride Dad's old bike, then it's got DT's on it, cause that's the way they came.
Saying DT's are becoming more popular because bikes of a certain era are becoming popular (most likely because they're cheap / free) is a false equivalency.
It's not like these 'college kids' were riding Synapses and Domanes with Ultegra and Dura-Ace in HS, then decided that they really wanted a Miyata 912.
Most likely, they're riding these old bikes because they were given to them, or were bought for very cheap.
The other thing that's so frustrating about your continued argument, is that no matter what experience on DT and STI bikes we collectively have, that because none of us seem to own both a 10-speed DuraAce DT bike and a 10-speed DA STI bike, that we are unable to see the sublime distinctions between them.
Well, you are a cyclist of unpeerable taste and distinction; Chapeau to you, sir, and may your sock lines forever be razor sharp.
Saying DT's are becoming more popular because bikes of a certain era are becoming popular (most likely because they're cheap / free) is a false equivalency.
It's not like these 'college kids' were riding Synapses and Domanes with Ultegra and Dura-Ace in HS, then decided that they really wanted a Miyata 912.
Most likely, they're riding these old bikes because they were given to them, or were bought for very cheap.
The other thing that's so frustrating about your continued argument, is that no matter what experience on DT and STI bikes we collectively have, that because none of us seem to own both a 10-speed DuraAce DT bike and a 10-speed DA STI bike, that we are unable to see the sublime distinctions between them.
Well, you are a cyclist of unpeerable taste and distinction; Chapeau to you, sir, and may your sock lines forever be razor sharp.
01-05-19, 09:55 PM
#506
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Please ... More!
01-05-19, 09:56 PM
#507
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You can wax poetical about it all you want. When I move my 7 speed 600 Tricolor lever, the shift moves smooth, confidently, and instantaneously, in such a manner that I question anyone that claims something can be so much better as to be on a completely different playing field. In the same way, my 9 speed DA bar ends, which are the functional equivalent of 9 speed DA DT shifters, do the exact same with an indiscernible feel. You insist I can't know because I don't know the system, but it is the same system packaged in a different location, a change which does not affect the shifting performance you love. I can literally take them off the bar ends and mount them on the DT (if I cared to buy a new rear wheel that fit a 9 spd) and experience your setup, but I don't need to, because my mind can extrapolate what it is going to feel like just fine.
We are apparently not discerning enough cyclists to be able to understand.
I bet you even wear socks with stripes, you dirty heathen.
01-05-19, 10:08 PM
#508
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You by the way are just another debby downer chiming in with no useful information. 10,000 posts in 3 years, that is all I need to know about you. Why don't you leave your parents basement for a few hours and maybe you will see some cyclists out there frolicking with their DT shifting bikes.
01-06-19, 09:37 AM
#510
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First, you're just lying about the post you were quoting. It didn't say that. The word dangerous doesn't appear in it, and it's just a list of things you can't do when you're shifting with a dt.
Second, if the things I mentioned above aren't problems, why is your statement about the peloton in the past tense? I too have over 40 years experience on multigear bikes. Is our age supposed to be impressive?
Third, I don't use "granny gears", but I don't see why you think that is a bad thing, or who you think you are to make such judgments. Did it ever occur to you that there are other reasons to ride other than proving how tough you are?
And btw, you rather obviously don't know what a straw man argument is. Suggest you actually figure that out before you try to use the phrase again.
Second, if the things I mentioned above aren't problems, why is your statement about the peloton in the past tense? I too have over 40 years experience on multigear bikes. Is our age supposed to be impressive?
Third, I don't use "granny gears", but I don't see why you think that is a bad thing, or who you think you are to make such judgments. Did it ever occur to you that there are other reasons to ride other than proving how tough you are?
And btw, you rather obviously don't know what a straw man argument is. Suggest you actually figure that out before you try to use the phrase again.
01-06-19, 03:46 PM
#511
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