Moisture

A position where you are as low as possible and evenly distributing your weight at an ideal centre of gravity (hopefully where the bottom bracket is) will offer you the most power. Depending on many different factors such as proportions and where your weight is distributed, this could be anywhere from a neutral to leaning forward position.

Thats not to say that an upright position can't be inefficient, so long as you are riding with your weight out of the saddle and in the crank arms .

terrymorse 

I've read some articles that say that as your chest gets very low, your power (your peak pedal force really) drops off.

Something to do with reducing the hip angle.

Moisture

That makes sense. But look at this from a different perspective.

1 - by being low i didn't mean leaning forward so much. It can have to do with bottom bracket height, saddle height, etc...

2. There are other factors to consider which may open or close your hip angle such as crank arm length. a leaning forward position would probably still offer better power transfer if your abs and stabilizer muscles are able to comfortably support your body without placing an over reliance on your handlebars and saddle as "contact points" this is obviously considering that you're not leaning forward to the point where there is simply not enough weight over the rear axle.

Again, these is an extrenely subjective topic as the human anatomy will vary results and riding position wildly from person to person.

Milton Keynes

All I know is, when I put bar ends on my straight bar hybrid, it seemed like I had more power going up hills when I held onto the bar ends than if I was holding onto the bar itself. It may have been all in my head, but it sure felt that way and I use the bar ends when climbing.

terrymorse 

Back to the title of this thread:

Does a more upright position give more power?

This question has been tested at least once, and it produced an answer: Yes.

Test subjects in the "standard sitting upright position" were able to produce 5% higher maximal power than in the "standard racing position".

The article summary states: In some cases when cycling on the road, higher speeds can be attained when sitting upright. This is especially true when cycling uphill when high power must be generated to overcome gravity but the road speed, and hence the power required to overcome air resistance, is relatively low.

unterhausen

was this study done on trained individuals?

OTOH, it makes some sense, almost everyone climbs in a more upright position. Maybe not as upright as the OP was referencing though.

terrymorse 

Unclear, as the full article is behind a paywall. The summary only says "healthy male subjects".

Trakhak

If the maximum power a given rider can generate for 5 minutes is, say, 300 watts, whether on climbs or elsewhere, the theoretical advantage of putting out 5% more power is negated by the fact that the rider would be unable to sustain that power output for the full 5 minutes. Anyone who uses a smart trainer learns that putting out more power exacts a cost that has nothing to do with sitting upright versus in the conventional racing position.

Cpn_Dunsel

Yes, it does.

Next question, please.

terrymorse 

This presumes that maximum 5 minute power is a fixed number and is not affected by body position, and that has not been established.

A higher 5 minute power may be possible in an upright position. The article hints at that possibility, as it reports the highest VO2max in the upright position.

icemilkcoffee 

You don't even need to refer to any studies. Just go and look at people riding Pelotons and other stationary bikes:


This is pretty much how most of them have their machines set up. So you know this is the optimal power producing position in the absence of wind drag.

tomato coupe

So, your (unproven) observation that most Peloton users set up their bikes similar to the advertising photos proves that this position produces the most power? Oh my ...

caloso

Peloton riders are well known as the experts in biomechanical efficiency,

icemilkcoffee 

Nope. I am saying look at a broad sample of Peloton users, not one particular ad photo (which was for illustration) and see how they set up their machines. You'll notice that they are all reasonably upright like you see in this photo.

icemilkcoffee 

There is something known as 'wisdom of the crowds'.

tomato coupe

Wow, who knew?

tomato coupe

So, how do you collect this data? Knock on doors and ask if you can observe people riding their Pelotons? Sounds a little weird to me.

Regardless, there is absolutely no reason to expect that the average Peloton user sets up their bike the way they do because it results in maximum power production.

terrymorse 

Here's another study:

The relationship between preferred and optimal positioning during submaximal cycle ergometry

It tested fourteen trained cyclists to find their most oxygen-efficient bicycle position.

They found that the most efficient position had a hip angle that each cyclist was already accustomed to riding on their own bicycle.

One might conclude that humans become most efficient at actions they do the most often.

Ironfish653

I've tried setting up 'spin bikes' like my road bike, even to the point of bringing a tape measure and beam level to the gym with me, (for the sake of science) and it just doesn't feel 'right' Heck, even my own bike on a stationary trainer feels substantially different than when it's rolling down the road. Also, the saddles on most spin bikes are more like 'recreational' saddles, than sport/racing saddles, and are more suited to riding upright than 'tucked in'
Getting 'low' is done for an aero advantage, not for more power. If you look at something like a TRI bike, you'll notice that the seat tube is extremely upright, like 78*+ and forward, which allows the rider's upper body to be low on the aero bars, while still keeping the hip angle open enough for good leg extension.

When I'm climbing on a rigid-frame bike, I don't really get down, as much as I get forward; I pull back (not up) on the bars, and get up 'on the rivet' of the saddle. This lets me get more weight onto the pedals, without overwhelming the rear tire (on gravel / dirt climb) and on longer / steeper climbs gets me part way into the transition to standing climbing, as it's needed.

burnthesheep

Lemmings.

Either way, the two ends if this spectrum most qualified IMO to comment are time triallists and recumbent riders.

spelger

My sister has a peloton. she has it arranged with all sorts of clothes hanging all over it. Zero watts baby.

ofajen

I think posture can affect maximum applied pedal force.

My experience is that there are optimal postures for maximum pedal force for both sitting and standing, depending on the situation, but I think they tend to occur in a function with a fairly broad peak, so varying from that isn’t a huge deal.

Seated, the peak force of the pedal stroke is directed at an angle both down and forward and the reaction force pushes both up and back. So the upper body needs to pull forward some to oppose the reaction force. I find that something less than fully upright is needed to deliver maximum pedal force. A 45 degree body lean helps because gravity exerts an opposing force on your torso and you have good posture and alignment with arms pulling at a forward and downward direction to oppose the pedal reaction force. The lower you get, the more the weight of your torso pulls down as you get more weight forward of the hip joint, but it isn’t really improving the pull in the forward direction.

Standing while climbing in a slow cadence, like up a steep slope on a single speed, moves the peak pedal force more nearly straight down, so maximum pedal force, which is quite necessary, needs a grip with arms extended down and pulling up. My touring bars give me this wheelbarrow style grip which I resort to on the really steep climbs. This requires a grip back near the steering axis which drop bars can’t provide.

Anyway those are the things I’ve noticed recently that led me to choose touring bars as the best compromise for the type of single speed riding I do.

Otto

xroadcharlie

I tend to believe we do get more power in the upright position. But I usually run out of breath before my legs give out. So it may not matter to some of use with longer climbs.

With short climbs though the extra power means I can climb short hills without downshifting keeping my comfort bike in a surprisingly higher gear then I anticipated without getting off the seat.

CrankyOne

Yes. And No. In general more of your weight is on the saddle. And at lower speeds/wattage that's a good thing as your ischia/spine are more properly and efficiently supporting the weight of your body as they were designed to do rather than your hands/arms/shoulders/back having to utilize/waste a lot of muscle energy to do so.

A good discussion here: City Bikes | LocalMile

As you push down on a pedal though your weight xfers from your ischia to that leg. And again, at lower wattage your glutes and hams are better able to provide force more efficiently beginning at an approx 90° angle rather than a greater angle that would be the case when leaning over.


That's like saying that the U.S. is nothing but mountains mountains everywhere. Think Keutenberg, Eyserbosweg, Patterberg, Cauberg, and many many more. And it's not just hills. ...but wind! It's quite normal to see Dutch and others 'down on the stem' on their omafiets going in to a strong wind.

For something more visual...

You Tube

CrankyOne

It's important to keep in mind that there's not a simple single answer to the OP's question. It varies based on power output.

At lower wattages upright is more efficient and provides sufficient force. Below about 15 mph (flat, no wind) there is no power advantage to leaning forward only decrease in efficiency. Someone riding around town at 13 mph will use less energy and sweat less sitting perfectly upright than leaning forward. As wattage output increases then leaning forward begins to allow for more force to be applied to the pedal stroke than is possible from an upright position.

HOWEVER, that extra force does not mean improved efficiency but comes at the cost of efficiency.