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Ti-Raleigh Team 753 40th anniversary replica review

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Ti-Raleigh Team 753 40th anniversary replica review

Old 09-20-20, 09:36 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by nomadmax
It's no wonder to me why companies don't make bikes like this anymore.
If they'd stop replaying their Greatest Hits like a bad cover band to create something new and exciting, perhaps they wouldn't get criticized for it.

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
....To sum up, I would modify the original racing design a bit to fit the riders most likely to buy a tribute model. The color scheme would be enough to make is seem original. Of course if someone asked my opinion I would suggest going to a custom builder and get everything exactly like you wanted.
For a tribute meant to suit rider comfort and advances in technology, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, Doug. I dare say your fit principles would result in a top tube that may slope even more than Raleigh's top tube of error. The difference, of course, is that you're building frames to best suit a rider - not to suit an image of days gone by.

As I've said before, the problem isn't sloping top tubes at face value, it's that Raleigh created the 40th "replica" to specifically appeal to that "exception" crowd - the nagging retrogrouches who want everything perfect. From this POV, the sloping TT is a glaring error and can't be excused. Same goes for the squished downtube transfers. As such, the team tribute Raleigh Rapide and French Record from the early 1980's are arguably more faithful replicas than the 40th bike.

-Kurt
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Old 09-20-20, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by NatusEstInSuht
Do you have a link to this video? Raleigh has three videos on this bike posted to its official YouTube site, but none seem to show any footage of them brazing this frame.
Thank you in advance.
I could not reference it a second time. Curious that, as they told the Prisoner, "that would be telling"
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Old 09-20-20, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888


The gentleman in the video is one of the foremost - if not the foremost authority on SBDUs, and has more of these things on hand for reference than Raleigh UK themselves.

He wouldn't have made a video indicating that the replica geometry was incorrect if it was correct.

-Kurt
My assertion is that the geometry of the 'replicants" was done on purpose. the audience here would most likely wait for an original, and have money leftover in the bank.
would only have 6 in back vs 11, but so it goes.
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Old 09-20-20, 04:12 PM
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Doug Fattic

Can you post some pics of 1-2, maybe 3 degree frames plz?

What degree do you think this Raleigh is?
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Old 09-20-20, 04:55 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by nomadmax
Which is it?

"It's a crying shame big manufacturers don't make steel frame/fork, quill stem, down tube shifter, rim brake bikes anymore".

"That's a miserable excuse for a currently produced bicycle; the steel frame has a non-level top tube, drop outs that don't look like the old ones, the down tube shifters are friction only and the decals are all wrong".

It's no wonder to me why companies don't make bikes like this anymore.
+1
If I want a great steel 16 lb. Keeper of the Flame bike, I get one by Adam Eldridge (Wraith). Nothing like my Super Corsa.

If I want a great steel 18 lb. Keeper of the Flame bike, I get one by Adam Eldridge (Stanridge Speed) EXACTLY like the so-called classic great bikes. Very likely better than my Super Corsa, Merckx, Guerciotti, Battaglin, Raleigh, Colnago, or Basso.

I don’t get the hullabalooey. It may well be a better bike than it’s predecessor, and if it’s not, I don’t care. I can get better, or cheaper, or that one. It’s a bike.
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Old 09-20-20, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
If Raleigh asked me to design a frame as a modern tribute to their 70’s flagship racing bicycle (I’m a British trained 753 certified builder - but they never would) I wouldn’t do it that much different than this new one – including sloping the top tube a little. I bet I am also the only BFC&V member who was actually watched them build 753 frames in Ilkeston.
Hey Doug, as you are a frame builder I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the Raleigh. You've addressed the sloping top tube, the other points of grievance are the dropouts and fork tips. What options would Raleigh have had for a slightly more elegant dropout (and fork tip)? Obviously the Campy 1010 isn't readily available anymore, but there's plenty of steel frame builders that seem to manage - or have horizontal dropouts gone the way of the dinosaur?

Then there's the details around the dropouts/fork tips. Blobs of weld/braze is far from what I'd expect of a professional bike company (even if they haven't been doing steel frames for a while.) Finally the tabs on the fork tips - surely it's frame building 101 to file them flush with the fork blades?
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Old 09-20-20, 05:05 PM
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After up close inspection,of the pictures online, the frame quality is a Joke. You would think those Chinese guys knew what a File and sandpaper was. Very Amateurish build on this frame.
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Old 09-20-20, 05:07 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by P!N20
Hey Doug, as you are a frame builder I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the Raleigh. You've addressed the sloping top tube, the other points of grievance are the dropouts and fork tips. What options would Raleigh have had for a slightly more elegant dropout (and fork tip)? Obviously the Campy 1010 isn't readily available anymore, but there's plenty of steel frame builders that seem to manage - or have horizontal dropouts gone the way of the dinosaur?

Then there's the details around the dropouts/fork tips. Blobs of weld/braze is far from what I'd expect of a professional bike company (even if they haven't been doing steel frames for a while.) Finally the tabs on the fork tips - surely it's frame building 101 to file them flush with the fork blades?
Aha! You have found the authenticity of this tribute/replica! Nothing says Raleigh like blobs of weld/braze (coming from a very pleased owner of a '73 Carlton Raleigh).
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Old 09-20-20, 05:21 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by merziac
Doug Fattic

Can you post some pics of 1-2, maybe 3 degree frames plz?

What degree do you think this Raleigh is?
Sure, the picture of the fancy lugged frame in the fixture has a 2º slope. It was designed for a short girl so all the tricks had to be used so the top tube could be kind of levelish with a quill stem. Her handlebars need to be as high as her saddle. She is a fast recreational rider but isn't racing through corners so a low bottom bracket height could be used (resulting in a longer head tube because the frame could be bigger). In addition a bit of height was added to the top of the head lug as well. She was one of my framebuilding class students that designed and cut out the lugs herself but preferred I did the brazing. She helped with the painting too choosing all the colors and doing the prep work while I did the spraying.

The next picture is how I design a frame placing the stem and seat in the same position that was established on a fitting bike on the fixture and then sliding the pieces that represent the frame tubes to match those components. In this case a 1º slope was chosen (look carefully at the mechanism that sets the top tube angle) because the lugs the student chose was 1º off from the design he needed.

It is a rare person that even notices a 1º slope even if looking for it. 2 degrees can be noticed if someone points it out but rarely is it obvious. 3 degrees and it is clear to see.

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Old 09-20-20, 06:27 PM
  #85  
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This came up for sale in MA

https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/bi...197719514.html
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Old 09-20-20, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Rocket-Sauce
Darn you. My size and just the ticket...as if I haven't been bugging enough folks in the Facilitators thread.

Would look interesting with black Dura-Ace 7100 on it...

-Kurt
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Old 09-20-20, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by P!N20
Hey Doug, as you are a frame builder I'm particularly interested in your thoughts on the Raleigh. You've addressed the sloping top tube, the other points of grievance are the dropouts and fork tips. What options would Raleigh have had for a slightly more elegant dropout (and fork tip)? Obviously the Campy 1010 isn't readily available anymore, but there's plenty of steel frame builders that seem to manage - or have horizontal dropouts gone the way of the dinosaur?

Then there's the details around the dropouts/fork tips. Blobs of weld/braze is far from what I'd expect of a professional bike company (even if they haven't been doing steel frames for a while.) Finally the tabs on the fork tips - surely it's frame building 101 to file them flush with the fork blades?
Raleigh is claiming safety standards on the armor plate dropouts.

You have to imagine the factory in wherever it is isn't/hasn't been doing this much if at all lately, certainly not gonna be truly in their wheelhouse and no way Raleigh was going to spring for any more than the bare minimum to get them done.

Just because they are/were supposedly certified in 753/725 doesn't mean they are capable as we see here.
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Old 09-20-20, 08:07 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by merziac
Raleigh is claiming safety standards on the armor plate dropouts.

You have to imagine the factory in wherever it is isn't/hasn't been doing this much if at all lately, certainly not gonna be truly in their wheelhouse and no way Raleigh was going to spring for any more than the bare minimum to get them done.

Just because they are/were supposedly certified in 753/725 doesn't mean they are capable as we see here.

Are you suggesting Maxway doesn't have people capable of competently brazing a lugged frame?
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Old 09-20-20, 08:24 PM
  #89  
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It's a rip off for £2500.00.

Veloce rear mech and calipers. £30 crank, £15 brake levers. £99 wheels. Sloppy welding (from what I've heard).
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Old 09-20-20, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Are you suggesting Maxway doesn't have people capable of competently brazing a lugged frame?
Maybe but not necessarily, I'd bet that the discussion with Raleigh included a conversation about them being happy to do it but not for the crappy offer Raleigh was offering.

It likely came down to them thinking "we'll do what we can, but its not going to reflect on us as well as we would like, hope the buyers are satisfied".

Aside from that in this profit at all cost, world global economy, I would also bet that there were out of the ordinary and scope challenges with a project of this size of 250? frames smallish, but full size range bigger problems and challenges.

This is why most companies had a special group, shop, division or whatever for this stuff back in the day so quality could be escalated for top shelf projects, something no company nowadays maintains at anywhere near the level needed for a project like this.
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Old 09-20-20, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac
Maybe but not necessarily, I'd bet that the discussion with Raleigh included a conversation about them being happy to do it but not for the crappy offer Raleigh was offering.

It likely came down to them thinking "we'll do what we can, but its not going to reflect on us as well as we would like, hope the buyers are satisfied".

Aside from that in this profit at all cost, world global economy, I would also bet that there were out of the ordinary and scope challenges with a project of this size of 250? frames smallish, but full size range bigger problems and challenges.

This is why most companies had a special group, shop, division or whatever for this stuff back in the day so quality could be escalated for top shelf projects, something no company nowadays maintains at anywhere near the level needed for a project like this.
Thru the last decade +, Maxway has built for Black Mountain, Soma, Rivendell, All City, Jamis, Kona, Surly, VO, Ritchey, Masi, and many more.
They are completely capable of cleaning up brazed shore lines. They build with generic tubing, varying levels of Reynolds, varying levels of Tange, and more.
And from what I can see, they supply brands with relatively small orders as well as large orders.

Agree that there may have been a limit on work for what wpuld be paid. At the same time, I've seen many relatively inexpensive frames from them(under $800) with brazed dropputs that are clean.


I haven't seen pics of these allegedly hideous Raleigh dropouts with braze blobs. I'll have to Google around to see.
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Old 09-20-20, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by P!N20
Then there's the details around the dropouts/fork tips. Blobs of weld/braze is far from what I'd expect of a professional bike company (even if they haven't been doing steel frames for a while.) Finally the tabs on the fork tips - surely it's frame building 101 to file them flush with the fork blades?
Agreed 100%. While the modern-day reinterpretation of the vintage concept is interesting, in this case the execution - particularly at this price point - is laughable. This thing just doesn't hit my personal value for money sweet spot with "workmanship" like that...

Edit: It wasn't too long ago Raleigh had its heart in the right place when it came to nostalgic flights of fancy; the quality difference is night and day:



DD

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Old 09-20-20, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Thru the last decade +, Maxway has built for Black Mountain, Soma, Rivendell, All City, Jamis, Kona, Surly, VO, Ritchey, Masi, and many more.
They are completely capable of cleaning up brazed shore lines. They build with generic tubing, varying levels of Reynolds, varying levels of Tange, and more.
And from what I can see, they supply brands with relatively small orders as well as large orders.

Agree that there may have been a limit on work for what wpuld be paid. At the same time, I've seen many relatively inexpensive frames from them(under $800) with brazed dropputs that are clean.


I haven't seen pics of these allegedly hideous Raleigh dropouts with braze blobs. I'll have to Google around to see.
Sounds like Raleigh should have been on the back foot here then, smallish batch, PITA in some ways, anybody who steps up gets what Raleigh paid for by paying a lot for it.

Does Maxway build regular Raleigh's?
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Old 09-20-20, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by merziac
Sounds like Raleigh should have been on the back foot here then, smallish batch, PITA in some ways, anybody who steps up gets what Raleigh paid for by paying a lot for it.

Does Maxway build regular Raleigh's?
I've read that USA Raleigh has/had their 631 Tamland line built by Maxway. Not sure if that is correct or not though.
I have no idea about Raleigh of England/Europe/whoever is selling this 753 frame.
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Old 09-21-20, 06:33 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by cudak888
Darn you. My size and just the ticket...as if I haven't been bugging enough folks in the Facilitators thread.

Would look interesting with black Dura-Ace 7100 on it...

-Kurt
Or black Dura Ace 9100.
Just sayin'
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Old 09-21-20, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by repechage
I could not reference it a second time. Curious that, as they told the Prisoner, "that would be telling"
It certainly is telling that you've failed to provide evidence about your claim; especially as you claim it exists.
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Old 09-21-20, 01:59 PM
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Now this is a useful post.

Originally Posted by Drillium Dude
Agreed 100%. While the modern-day reinterpretation of the vintage concept is interesting, in this case the execution - particularly at this price point - is laughable. This thing just doesn't hit my personal value for money sweet spot with "workmanship" like that...

Edit: It wasn't too long ago Raleigh had its heart in the right place when it came to nostalgic flights of fancy; the quality difference is night and day:



DD
Thanks. Reference is so important, and I completely forgot those models.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:23 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by NatusEstInSuht
It certainly is telling that you've failed to provide evidence about your claim; especially as you claim it exists.
not a nefarious claim, things can and do get edited. When I saw it, thought "huh". metal was brighter than I would have expected using silver, more like bronze.
So it goes.
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Old 09-22-20, 06:54 PM
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Chiming in to address one last thing issue regarding this bike - particularly from the UK posters in Neil's videos:

If you have no other evidence to prove that Maxway deliberately delivered a substandard product to Raleigh against their wishes, lay off the ethnocentrism.

In this day and age, all product development with a remote supplier involves test samples that are used to rectify errors and faults.

It is reasonable to assume that Raleigh UK provided the specifications regarding the geometry, accessories, paint job, fork/dropout ends, and decals.
It is reasonable to assume that Maxway provided "test shots" (samples) of the frames prior to production.
It is reasonable to assume that at a certain point, a test shot was approved by Raleigh UK, and that the final production bicycle is a duplicate of that test shot.
As such, it is not reasonable to assume that Maxway or "those Taiwanese" did anything wrong by their own doing.

Bashing Maxway into the wall without fact just betrays blind nationalism and a fair bit of ignorance.

It also doesn't take into account that a UK-based builder might have been asked to produce the bike to the exact same specifications as Maxway. Had they done so, I'm sure they would have taken the undeserving piss for it too and unable to comment thanks to a non-disclosure agreement (just like how Detroit Bikes is getting undeserved crap for producing Pacific's limited-edition Schwinn Collegiate).

For that matter, Maxway might have even built that 2011 Raleigh International shown above. I can't verify it though, so the point is moot. Still, it's probably one of the greatest mass-production KOF frames ever made; definitely worthy of sitting in any collection side-by-side with it's 1970's brethren.

/rant

-Kurt
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Old 09-22-20, 07:22 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by cudak888
It is reasonable to assume that ..., and that the final production bicycle is a duplicate of that test shot.
While I agree 100% with everything else you wrote, this is a bad assumption. I deal with non-conformance (NC) on parts/finished goods all of the time. They most definitely occur most frequently with first lot to stock (FLTS). Considering the low volume of this bike, I think it is safe to assume the entire batch was FLST.

That said, nationality of any manufacturer has nothing to do with quality. Quality is the objective measurement critical attributes. Country of origin is not a critical quality attribute.

My stupid wild-a$$ guess, timing. Raleigh had a deadline to hit the "40th anniversary" mark. Product got rushed through QC. And don't forget, there is no doubt Raleigh had incoming QC. They could have rejected the lot from their manufacturer. They did not.
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