chefdurfee

Hi, this is my first time posting/asking a question...I brought home a Colnago Sport of dubious value, but with some reasonably nice Campy components. The BB was quite loose, so was the first thing that I dug into - turns out the spindle was in backwards. But, although I have corrected that, I still can't get the BB properly fitted so that the spindle is snug and crankset doesn't wobble. And I'm not confident that the crank arms actually fit the spindle...does that even make sense? The bearing balls are not loose, but are set in a ring (also campagnolo). I wonder what next steps I should take to correct this.. I guess I can't post pics here, but have some to share if anyone is able to help.

P!N20

So are the cranks wobbling on the spindle or is the crank and spindle wobbling as one?

There's essentially two types of square tapered spindles - ISO and JIS, but even if you put JIS cranks on an ISO spindle (or vise versa) they shouldn't wobble.

I wonder if the caged bearings might be the wrong way around.

Some pictures would help, I think you can upload them to your album and a nice forum member can post them up - or get creative with posting a link to your preferred image hosting site.

bulgie 

Sometimes what a "civilian" calls wobble is what a mechanic would call runout. That's when the bearing is adjusted right and the crank is tight on the spindle, but when you rotate the crank, the chainring moves closer to the frame and then farther, back and forth with each revolution. Is that what you're seeing?

If so, most common cause is a bent crank spider, but a bent spindle could do that too. If there's a chip or raised curl of metal inside the tapered square hole in the crank where the spindle goes, that could throw the crank out of concentricity, and you'd see runout at the chainring teeth.

A bent Campy spindle is very rare, but if that's it, then maybe that's why it was in backwards? That moves the bent end to the left, where you'd be less likely to notice the runout. That would be a pretty cheesy workaround, not something I'm recommending! Just trying to puzzle it out.

Mark B in Seattle

SurferRosa

My guess it's the wrong spindle for the cups altogether, much less the crankset. Was the bike listed for sale recently on Craigs? I wonder if we saw it in the Wacky (or similar) thread with its adjustable cup sitting far outside the bb shell and a spindle that uses nuts, not crank bolts.

JohnDThompson 

What model crank/bottom bracket do you have? Campagnolo bottom brackets in the pre-C-Record era were a hot mess. Campagnolo USA published an article to help figure things out:

chefdurfee

Thanks John, based on the sheet you provided I would say its a Nuovo Record

chefdurfee

SurferRosa Yes! Well, yes and no. I did a quick search through the site and saw the post you are refering to. In any case, it is indeed a Campy BB with a Campy spindle, and it uses crank bolts (not nuts)

Spaghetti Legs 

Well to cover basics first, the crank is Campy as well? If not mismatched and worn taper on the crank is a consideration. Other poster mentioned backward bearing gs. The flatfish part of the cage on the bearings faces out with the rolly part contacting the race on the spindle.

Further down the list, maybe a chase and face of the BB shell would help.

keithdunlop

First step for me would be to take some calipers and measure the BB shell and the spindle length and make sure the spindle is the correct length. My first guess is that the spindle is mismatched to the BB.

chefdurfee

BB measures at 70mm. The spindle length is 113mm The markings on the spindle read "70 SS 120". "Breve Inter"

chefdurfee

The spindle and crankset are both Campagnolo. Spindle uses crank bolts, not nuts....

chefdurfee

Spindle and crank are both Campy. I do have the bearing cages facing the right way...I was wondering if I should just try loose bearings and ditch the cage.

keithdunlop

That would be the correct Campy spindle for an Italian 70mm BB.

I would go back now to an earlier question. Is it that the spindle wobbles, or the crank arms? If the BB, when installed and the cups properly adjusted, do not create the wobble (with no cranks attached), then you'd have to look at the engagement of the cranks to the taper. If when you tighten the crank attachment bolts they bottom out prior to full torquing of the crank to the spindle, you may experience the wobble you describe.

When the BB is installed on the frame, and the adjustable cup proper tuned, is there any spindle play? In other words, can we eliminate the BB as a source of the issue with proper installation and adjustment?

Finally, just to be clear this isn't something you experience while riding? Classic Campy Italian BBs experience something called "precession" where they can gradually back out while riding. Unless you apply thread lock and a ton of torque to the fixed cup side (the crank ring side), it can gradually back out in the reverse direction of peddling and create a lot of wobble. It happened to me with my first Eroica build.

SurferRosa

I believe you.

conspiratemus1

You need to measure the dimensions on the spindle as per JohnThompson’s linked Campag bulletin to be sure your spindle matches the cups. Record and NR spindles have identical markings — they differ in the width between the bearing shoulders and one spindle won’t fit the other cups. Only the NR (and SR but I’ve never seen one) cups are thick, to provide the rifling which is immediately obvious. When the bottom bracket is installed correctly, there should be no rattling and there should be just enough threads protruding from the shell that the lock ring covers them completely to end up flush with the cup face. Any other outcome means something is awry in the BB, never mind the cranks yet.

P.S. Don’t go taking the balls out of their cages, not yet, anyway. It won’t make any difference to fit and loose balls make test-fitting and troubleshooting much more difficult and finicky.

P.P.S. Contrary to what you hear sometimes, you cannot fit in a 12th ball by putting them in loose, without the clip. I don’t know where this myth, or “traditional knowledge”, originated but it’s false. Might be true in other bearings but not in bottom brackets, so leave the 11 balls in their clip and de-complicate your life.

JohnDThompson 

Many manufacturers use 9-ball retainers (Nervar even used 7-ball retainers), and using loose balls would allow a full 11-ball complement to be installed. But Campagnolo and other high-end bottom brackets use 11-ball retainers, and there is no advantage to replacing these with loose balls.

conspiratemus1

Well see, that’s how myths get started. I overheard something, misunderstood its full context, and before you know it, it’s a myth that needs to be busted. None of my own bikes, well, none that I knew enough about to take apart, have had the Cape Breton smile of gap-toothed ball sets.

Thanks. As my sig. says, ...

chefdurfee

Its possible that there could be more than one problem...as SurferRosa pointed out, the adjustable cup sits far outside the BB shell...when I try to screw it in further, the spindle will not turn freely...but when I back out the adjustable cup, the spindle has some wiggle to it. Based on the Campy spec sheet that John posted, that the spindle is an "older" NR (51/29/32). The cups have the rifling that would indicate NR, and are Italian thread (36 x 24). Additionally, there might be an issue with the crank arms ...they don't appear to fit "all the way" onto the spindle. And, there are bolts, but no washers. Would that make a difference?

Ex Pres 

Sounds like cages backwards to me

JohnDThompson 

Could be. 9-ball retainers typically sit with the solid "ring" of the retainer facing inward, toward the race on the spindle. 11-ball retainers sit with the ring facing out, toward the cup:

merziac

This should be the BINGO on this concern.

I may not have known this but I do know that I have never left one assembled incorrectly, you should be able to feel and or see when you don't have this right.

merziac

Assuming both the cups screw in all the way smoothly without the bearings and spindle since you can bind up the spindle?

No washers could make a difference but if they do the crank arms may be going too far in on the spindle.

When you say the arms don't fit all the way on the spindle, how much of the arm is not seated after torquing the bolt down then take it out, in other words, how far is the spindle from where the bolt contacts the arm when tightened down?

conspiratemus1

Surely the ball retainer rings are in backwards.

If you just insert a spindle into a crank with hand pressure it’s not meant to go all the way “in” (up the taper). Pressing on with the bolt will drive it another 2-3 mm, depending on how worn the taper in the crank is, but there will still be a few mm (4-5?) of taper visible behind the crank. As @merziac says, you want there to be clearance between the end of the spindle and the outer edge of the crank hole, like 1.5 mm or so.

Please get some washers so as not to gouge the recesses of those nice cranks with the underside of the bolt head when you torque it.

orangeology

i might be wrong. but, isn't the consequence of 'backwardly put' a bearing retainer more 'tight/squeaky' roll than 'wobble' due to more frictions, tho? could it be just incorrect size of the bearings, like smaller bearings making room to wobble?

chefdurfee

Thanks for your help here John, I definitely have the retainer facing in the direction that you have indicated. I'll continue fussing with the adjustable cup...it seems as though I am able to "overtighten" it, so that the spindle binds up and won't turn, but then when I tighten the lock ring, the spindle free;s up and is able to turn again. I keep tweaking this, hoping to find the sweet spot. Curiously, at this stage, sometimes the spindle turns freely (in the pedal direction) but then won't turn freely when "pedaled backward".