MikeDeason

Just want to make sure my shop isn’t trying to get me in for an unnecessary service. The bike shop told me to bring in the bike for a complete drain after Five Hundred km then every 2k km after that

I’ve read online first drain at TWO THOUSAND MILES or 2 years and same thereafter. This seems to be the recommended interval in the manual if I am reading it correctly.

there is a severe disconnect between these intervals. Perhaps manufacturing improvements have negated the necessity for the early drain? I know some engines are manufactured without the potential for shavings so the initial oil change interval have been relaxed.

sweeks

From the Shimano Service Manual for the Alfine 8:
To maintain the product in good working order, it is recommended to have the place of purchase or a distributor carry out maintenance such as lubrication of the internal parts about once a year from the first time of use (once every 2,000 km if the bicycle is used very frequently). If the bicycle is used under harsh conditions, more frequent maintenance is required. Also, for carrying out maintenance, the use of SHIMANO internal geared hub grease or a lubrication kit is recommended. If SHIMANO grease or a SHIMANO lubrication kit is not used, problems such as a malfunction in gear shifting may occur.
Source: IHG-INTER8.
Note: The procedure is easy to perform at home if you have reasonable bike-maintenance skills.

grumpus

This manual states:
//
In order to maintain proper performance, it is recommended that you contact the place of purchase or a distributor to carry out maintenance such as internal oil replacement or lubrication after riding 1,000 km from the start of use and then after about once every year (or once about every 2,000 km if the bicycle is used very frequently). If the bicycle is used under harsh conditions, more frequent maintenance is required.//

Duragrouch

Gosh with those intervals, I'd need service several times a year. Hopefully as easy as stated above, or, a hub with good seals that uses a gear lube oil bath, and a drain plug for easy drain and fill, ideally a magnetic drain plug to pull out steel particles, most important for the first lube interval.

MikeDeason

So where do you see the manual with 1,000 km recommended for initial service? I'm not seeing that.

"To maintain the product in good working order, it is recommended to have the place of purchase or a distributor carry out maintenance such as lubrication of the internal parts about once a year from the first time of use (once every 2,000 km if the bicycle is used very frequently)."

https://si.shimano.com/en/pdfs/sm/IH...R8-001_ENG.pdf

grumpus

The text that I quoted says "oil replacement or lubrication after riding 1,000 km from the start of use" and the link I posted was this: https://si.shimano.com/en/pdfs/dm/CA...004-01-ENG.pdf
What are you failing to see?

MikeDeason

I’m looking at this on my phone without readers but it does say 2k in the quote I provided and 1k in quote you provided from the same manual ?

grumpus

Not the same manual, different names, different dates (mine is newer, maybe they revised the service advice?)

MikeDeason

I see. So it’s diminishing service intervals. My dealer told me 500km.

sweeks

The first service is probably the most important, as that's probably where most of the wearing-in has occurred.

I've been doing the "dip", with new grease on the bearings, about once a year (600-800 miles) for the last 10-15 years on my Nexus 8. The Alfine 11 gets an oil change about every 600 miles.

Duragrouch

I agree that initial wear-in on anything mechanical, IGH, transmission, engine, etc, produces the most metal particles, warranting an earlier lube change. But a magnetic drain plug really helps in that regard.

Wow that's pretty frequent lube change on the Alfine 11, but if it's just a drain and fill with no take-apart, and lube is cheap (like auto gear lube), I could see doing that. But a magnetic drain plug I think would also be great there. On an engine, it's mostly steel and iron, with only aluminum pistons, but on an IGH, all wear surfaces are ferromagnetic steel, so metal particles would be pulled out. I doubt that a quality gear lube would lose its lubricating properties at all in only 600 miles.

MikeDeason

I own a landscape company and many of the new engines and hydraulic systems we buy no longer require a “break in” oil change. They go straight to regular intervals. I was told by reps that this is due to improved manufacturing, basically eliminating shavings

grumpus

When the IGH is sold as a robust low-maintenance system Shimano's offerings seem surprisingly dependant on maintenance. Compared to Rohloff's 5000 km/annual service interval and 100,000 km life expectancy (with reports of three times that) they don't seem very robust or economical.

ign1te 

I would completely ignore the manufacturers and the bike shops recommendations. How comfortable are you with doing repairs?

MikeDeason

The basic maint I will do after the first service. First service done by bike shop helps maintain warranty claims I was told.

ign1te 

Investigate what the warranty actually is. The manufacturer may have a standard. Note that if you open the hub yourself the warranty is voided. Frequent services by dealer quickly becomes meaningless as the internal unit bought new is not that expensive.

My recommendation is to remove the internal unit and immerse it in a gear oil bath. Do that once per year. Clean the hub shell when the internals are out with a petro degreaser at your local DIY carwash.

Duragrouch

Like many well engineered things, Rohloff is designed and made by gray-haired folks in da olde country. Or at least that's how I imagine it. So is the 3x3 Nine hub, new on the scene and I'm hoping is a lot lower price than a Rohloff 14 (TBD), about same weight, a bit wider total ratio but gear steps are almost twice as large, however the max input torque rating is also almost twice the Rohloff. The Nine claims lifetime lube with only grease inside, we'll see. If fit with a drain and fill plug, it's just not that much trouble or cost to change the lube every 5k, and I have to think that an oil bath and magnetic drain plug would be vastly better for keeping metal powder from grinding between gear teeth, versus being mixed with the grease. But maybe with very hard steel, well-designed spur gears, with no sliding like some gear styles, perhaps stays very clean.

Duragrouch

I could easily see assembly of cleaner components, post machining. But, for engines at least, it's not a matter of the cylinder bores being smoother or cleaner; They can't be super smooth and have the piston rings bed properly; Each cylinder bore has a "thrust" side when under drive, and a "coast" side when using engine-braking. The (typically) 2 piston sealing rings are assembled with the ring end-gap on one ring, 90 degrees to thrust or coast side, and the other piston ring 180 degrees opposite to that. The bores from the factory have intentional honing "cross hatching", and that is designed to mildly abrade at the rings, for the rings and bores to "bed" (seat) into each other, and thus prevent the rings from rotating from their position for the life of the engine. This prevents the end gaps from being on the thrust or coast side, where they could eat a groove in the bore, and prevents both end gaps from lining up, reducing sealing and compression. This is the essence of an engine "break-in", and it does create more metal particles in the oil than were there at 0 miles. I would imagine the same is true for a piston pump with metal compression rings.

Regarding gears, perhaps improved manufacturing makes them smoother so you don't get initial wear as they bed in. I don't know. But they would need to start with a "mirror finish" to be as smooth as after bedding in, in my experience.

MikeDeason

Interesting. Our new Kohler’s and Hydro Gears went straight to regular oil change intervals , no break change in required as per the manual. I agree about the pistons and will investigate further the reasoning.

Duragrouch

A lot of engines these days come with a magnetic drain plug, and that can help a ton, as all the cylinder and ring metal is magnetic, at least for an iron or iron-sleeved enginer. Also, oil filters are better than they used to be; Some really special oil filters (I think used with Lucas synthetic oils), referred to as "Luberfiner" filters, that oil would stay looking like new.

None of the other parts of the engine require wear for break-in.

A Wankel rotary engine required no break-in period, and because the oil in the center of the rotor for the (huge) crank journals and epicyclic gearing, was well-separated from the combustion chambers, some came certified for 50,000 mile oil changes, however, the oil was "changed" plenty as they consumed about a quart every 1500 miles as it was automatically metered into the fuel in order to lube the apex seals.

MikeDeason

Some info regarding the smaller Kohler’s as per my inquiry

"Good morning. In checking with the service teams, all current production engines with an oil filter do not require a break-in oil change. That process requirement has been phased out over the last 10+ years. It will not hurt the engine to do a break-in oil change, but it's not required. It's why we strongly recommend using OEM oil filters and oil

In general:
With an oil filter - no break-in oil change needed
No oil filter - break-in oil change needed

We do not run every engine at the factory for 5 hours. We do run every engine and drain the oil, but it is usually just a few minutes. We do not ship engines with full oil in them. The OEM adds the oil during their assembly process. We do select engines off the line and run them as a quality check for many, many hours, but it is not standard practice to run every engine for hours. Depending on the cycle test being completed (emissions, durability, production line audit, etc.) we may or may not do a break-in oil change on our test engines.

I hope that helps.

Brian Melka
President, Kohler Engines

grumpus

I hope their hubs work better than their website.

Duragrouch

Worked great for me. Lots of bells-and-whistles animations. Lots of info. Except the price darnit. EDIT: Found it at their USA distributer, Vapor Propulsion Labs, just under $900. That may be too close to a Rohloff with better steps, and oil bath lube.