AlmostTrick

This happened to me on a recent event ride. The close passing paceline behavior increases risk to all.

Don't bother telling me about bike handling ability. Even the pros, with their "expert" skills go down (often HARD) because they were too close to other riders and couldn't avoid it.

Sorry racer boys, just because you're willing to take on the risk of becoming a crash test dummy doesn't mean you can force those risks on others.

AlmostTrick

The "polite" distance is always at least 3 feet. I almost always give even more than that when I pass cyclists. More space = more safety. There's really no good reason not to have it.

In the situation you were in probably the best thing to do would be to hold your line, as you allow yourself to coast down. That would allow the racers to get past you in the shortest amount of time, reducing your risk of being tangled up with them due to one misjudgment / road hazard or another.

baron von trail 

My thoughts exactly. I probably would have stepped on it and dropped the posers, laughing all the way. Ha ha.

tjspiel

+1

I don't want to get to the point where we consider the ability to bunny hop a required commuting skill. At the same time drivers, pedestrians, dogs, and other cyclists may put us situations where we don't feel safe. We can vent here and other places after the fact but ultimately it's up to us to manage those situations as they are happening.

If your commute route happens to intersect with a popular group ride route, you could take an alternate way home until after the season is over. Or if they are all wearing the same jersey you could find out who is sponsoring the team/ride and politely give them a heads up that some of their riders are taking chances with other cyclists' safety.

It might be the result of group think, putting speed above all else, not paying attention, or just plain exhaustion. I've been on group rides where it it was all I could do to hang on to the wheel in front of me after awhile. The sponsor may do nothing but it may prompt them to talk the the ride leaders who will talk to the riders.

tjspiel

+1

There's some good advice there too. People in a paceline are used to responding to signals. Stick your arm out to the left as if you intend to move that way and they should make some space. It's like swimming in a school of fish. They will react to your movements (hopefully). On the other hand, I'm sure fish run into each other once in awhile.

grolby

"Racer boy" here. 3 feet is a hilariously wide margin. And there are plenty of good reasons to leave less space. If only I consistently had 3 feet to pass on the paths and streets around here; but that's not realistic. Maybe it is in Illinois, I don't know. It's common courtesy to slow down the closer you have to pass, of course. I don't approve of blowing by slower riders at all. Every now and then, though, you pass someone who is so uncomfortable with it that it doesn't matter how slow you are going, and they get angry. There's not really anything I can do about that. Contrary to what some people think, being faster than other riders does not make anyone a jerk. Act with reasonable courtesy, is all I can say, but when the attitude of some people is that you should always give at least 3 feet, I guess you just can't win sometimes. Your second paragraph is good advice, though. Agree 100%.

cooker

On this particular one-way street the parked cars are only on the left, so no "door-zone" next to the bike lane to worry about. The only reason the bike lane was relevant to my story, is that the overtaking cyclists seemed to try to pass me within the bike lane, even as cars passed in the car lane. It's as if they thought (and I'm speculating here) that this would somehow allow us all to ride three abreast (car - bike- bike) (top picture). What they should have done, is pass me with a bit more room to spare, which would have meant intruding into the car lane, and timing the passing to be between or after the passing cars (bottom picture).

kickstart

Narrow margins are sometimes a necessity due to lack of space, the issue is those who don't modify their behavior to match the situation, and use aggression to maintain their their pace and position in mixed company.
I've never encountered a paceline on my commute, the roads are simply not conducive to such riding, but its common to encounter them when running errands or riding recreationally on the weekends. Most are fine, a friendly greeting, or a show of appreciation for giving space, just folks having fun, but there are a few with an attitude...............almost as if ones speed defines their character.

AlmostTrick

Hi, "Safety boy" here. Could you explain some of these "plenty of good reasons" to leave less than 3 feet of space?

If 3 feet is not a valid minimum in your estimation, what is? 2 feet? 1? An inch or two? A light bump now and then?

This. The urge to maintain pace (at almost any cost) is strong in a paceline. Add to this the fact that the riders are so close to each other that their ability to see or safely react to road hazards is greatly hindered. If they want to take on these additional risks, that's fine. But they have no right to force them on others!

tjspiel

Not trying to split hairs or be pedantic but when people talk about 3 feet, are they talking about from tire to tire? Your shoulder to their shoulder? Bar end to bar end?

In most of the bike lanes I've been in, having two bikes side by side completely within the bike lane would make things pretty tight. Having both of their tires within the lane? Not so bad.

Think about riding with a buddy, significant other or a kid. How often do you ride 3 feet apart? On a two way MUP, how often do people passing each other going opposite directions do so leaving 3 full feet between their bikes?

Now passing while going the same direction is different. In the above scenarios, the cyclists know that the other is there. When you're approaching somebody from the rear and they don't know you're coming, you want to give wide berth in case they move suddenly to their left. Still, on a MUP for example, people rarely move that far over. They will ring their bell or yell "On your left" and probably pass with some bike or body part passing within 18 inches of yours. And it is not a big deal.

What is a safe passing distance? I can't give a set amount. I can tell you that while riding solo I'm probably never far enough to the right in a bike lane that somebody could pass me completely within that bike lane at a distance that I would call safe. So I'm not condoning what the pace line riders did. If one of them said "on your left" and I moved toward the right, then maybe. Depends on the bike lane, but I would think some bike or body parts would have to be outside the lane.

For the folks that were squeezed by pace lines, did you know they were coming or did somebody suddenly just pull up a few inches away from your bike? That can be unnerving. Again, I think people are more comfortable with bikes in close proximity if they weren't surprised by them.

snow_echo_NY

+1
the nastiness on this thread is unnecessarily judgmental and shaming for no good reason. OP had a question and probably wants thoughtful answers. not this.
i sure hope you never experience your own nasty judgment and shaming.

kickstart

"distance" in general would be from the outermost extremity, whatever that may be depending on vehicle.

Riding in close proximity with someone you know, or one individual passing another at a moderate speed differential is entirely different then being passed closely at a high speed differential in rapid succession by a conga line of riders.
My personal experiences have been that I was aware of their approach, but surprised by their aggression and lack of consideration for myself and others

snow_echo_NY

ita

snow_echo_NY

it seems like you're uneasy with their passing rate but they're fine with it. it sounds like they came up to you and were just keeping your pace. for next time, i would just slow down to let them pass you, or get out of the situation and pass them and their pace line if you can keep up steam.

i don't think you have to worry about debris in the lane if it's a bike lane unless it's a shoulder. we have potholes here so i always make sure i'm on either the left or right most edge to escape the potholes or take a line that avoids potholes on either side.

as others stated, i wouldn't ask for 3 feet of clearance b/c the bike lane is 4 feet wide.

best of luck to you. i know it can be unnerving.

unterhausen

a lot of pretty fast cyclists are horrible at riding on the road. I swung out a little to turn right, and two guys drafting each other passed me on the right -- without saying a word. On a normal day, I would have hit the front guy in the face when I signaled. I could have easily taken us all out, and I see no reason for what they did. There was no passing traffic, and they should have been well out into the lane.

As far as passing distance, I really don't like to pass closer than 3'. A cyclist really should have 4' to ride safely (not clearance, 2' on both sides). I ride with a lot of guys that are uncomfortable in a paceline, and a lot of cyclists are a little wobbly. I'm not going to break into a paceline with people I don't know, and they shouldn't insert me into it. If there is a car that is passing, then the idiots in the paceline should slow down and wait to pass until they feel comfortable. That's no excuse for passing too closely.

Commuting isn't most of my miles, I don't do a lot of the local group rides because it doesn't really interest me any more. I used to race, and that probably makes me more intolerant of racers behaving badly. If I was in such a group and they treated a cyclist like the OP was treated, the rest of the group would get an earful from me.

grolby

I would say Good Reason No. 1 is that I wish to actually pass someone at some point rather than ride slowly behind them forever. Good Reason No. 2, pursuant to GR1, is that allowing 3 full feet of clearance between yourself and another slower moving cyclist would frequently make it impossible to pass for very long periods of time due to auto traffic or insufficient width of the path. Since 3 feet is a HUGE margin for one bicyclist to overtake another, I do not think it's unreasonable to pass closer than that. I would not prescribe a minimum distance because I really think that's down to common sense and good judgment. I try very hard to pass at distance and speed that feels safe and non-threatening. That's basically the best I can do. It seems to be going okay. I've passed hundreds of people with a zero percent chance of them crashing into me or vice versa. 3 feet is not necessary to ensure that.

What I'm not able to completely prevent is that some people get upset no matter how careful you are. There's not a whole lot to be done about that. But mostly I think I do a good job of not spooking people.

Clyde1820

What, he thinks the pavement is any softer if a crash is induced by his proximity instead of a motor vehicle's?


To my way of thinking, the guideline's purpose is to provide room to maneuver and to avoid direct contact. Can't have both of those if some ignore the point. IMO, it applies equally strongly to anyone attempting a pass. The guy being passed still has rights as someone on the roadway, and that includes basic safety and room to maneuver.

kickstart

That's all good and reasonable for one cyclists passing another at a modest speed differential, but falls short of the mark for a paceline at a higher speed differential as an incident would likely involve a multi cyclist pile up.

grolby

Is that what we're talking about? The OP said it took 1/2 a mile for everyone to pass. That is either a ridiculously huge group, or a slow-moving one. I was responding to @AlmostTrick saying that 3 feet should be the minimum distance for ALL passes. Still, similar common courtesy applies to a group passing a slower rider. At a slow overtaking speed, 3 feet may be more than is necessary for safety. At a high overtaking speed, it may not be enough. That's the exact same reasoning I use for passing as a solo rider. If I have room available, I can pass at a higher speed but further away. If I have less room available, I can pass closer but slower.

FBinNY 

I see part of the issue as a Siegfried Line mentality problem. It seems that many people, both drivers and bicyclists get overly serious about lines on the pavement. That's never been an issue here in the NY area which has a reputation for the shortest life of pavement markings. (NYC uses melted plastic, not paint in an effort to prolong life).

Anyway, it seems that the paceline tried passing without moving left out of the bike lane, which would make more sense. In this way they were acting like motorists that won't cross the center line on narrow roads.

I don't ride pace lines, but do pass plenty of other cyclists. I have no problem moving over, and likewise the cars that pass me have no problem moving over and splitting the centerline to make a safe and effective pass.

IMO (only an opinion) life would get much easier if we accepted lane markings as suggestions, and kept to them when it made sense, and mover over as necessary when it didn't, and were less focused on actually being in a lane.

I have the same unfavorable opinion of cyclists who insist that cars shift over a full lane, as I do for cyclists and drivers that won't shift over at all. If passing safely in a 4' bike lane means moving a foot or two into the traffic lane, check for traffic and make the move, then move back when finished.

BTW- as I read some of the "lane" threads here on BF I wonder how some of those folks would do in NYC where we have to flex around buses, cabs with their tails hanging out, tourists in the road gawking at the tall buildings, and whatever. Strict adherence to lane discipline here would have things grind to a halt in no time.

kickstart

I can't really form an opinion about the OPs example, like you say, unless it was a huge group taking a 1/2 mile to pass is a "hi, how's it going, nice day for a ride" speed differential. Other than that, like I said, a paceline should be giving more space than an individual cyclist as they pose a greater potential for an incident.

IMO, a paceline shouldn't be passing as a paceline with less than 3', if its truly not possible they should break the line and pass individually.

spare_wheel

this is pure nonsense.

spare_wheel

Adherence to lane discipline by vulnerable transport should always be a choice. We only have lanes, signs, and signals because we as a society allow people to drive truly dangerous machinery on our roads.

FBinNY 

Signs and signals are something different, but lanes are about improving laminar flow and road capacity. As such they're useful tools. But when the situation calls for it, folks should exercise some discretion, and put a bit of flex into the system so it doesn't break.

Elsewhere here on BF we had the flap about the cop in SoCal who passed too close on a narrow mtn road. His argument for passing in violation of the 3' rule was that he couldn't cross the centerline. He said he "couldn't violate one law to follow another" without realizing that is exactly what he did. Discounting that he had a third option, namely to slow down and wait to pass, the reality is that he could have waited for an opening up ahead and moved over the center line 1-3' and made it work for everybody.

(there's even a proposal to make that explicitly legal in CA).

The lines serve a useful purpose, but they're just paint on pavement, not uncrossable barriers, and a bit of applied common sense makes it work better.

kickstart

In actuality the truth is somewhere between the two.

I've seen pacelines riding with reckless abandon, disregarding other people and applicable laws.
I've seen pacelines in perfect harmony with their environment that were a pleasure to watch.
I've seen pacelines break up into a group of individual riders, or vice-versa in response to conditions.