Where's the original?
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Greenwood SC USA
Posts: 2,252
Bikes: 2002 Mercian Vincitore, 1982 Mercian Colorado, 1976 Puch Royal X, 1973 Raleigh Competition, 1971 Gitane Tour de France and others
Mentioned: 55 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 823 Post(s)
Liked 1,395 Times
in
694 Posts
Okay, I'll play - the copy becomes wonderful when the original has greater collector value as an artifact than it does as a working tool. In the bike world, it was cheaper for me to buy a new Mercian road-track frameset and build it up with modern kit than it would have been to purchase and lovingly renovate a vintage Holdsworth Typhoon with NOS Chater-Lea or BSA parts.
In guitars, it's even bigger. Pre-1965 Gibson J-45s run about 2-5 the price of a new Montana-built J-45. The interesting thing is, despite tons of marketing $$$ and a plethora of ever-more-finely-shaded variations on a theme (last time I looked there were at least 50 or 60 flavors of Gibson J-45 that have been offered since 1989), a plain-Jane example built as a run of Guitar Center-specials pretty much mopped the floor with my memories of a couple hundred vintage guitars. Sometimes the tributes/copies/homages are superior to the originals.
Besides, I'd rather create my own patina of use than buy it. At least with bikes nobody's building new bikes and making them look like they've been dragged behind a burning truck, unlike the "relic" thing in guitars.
In guitars, it's even bigger. Pre-1965 Gibson J-45s run about 2-5 the price of a new Montana-built J-45. The interesting thing is, despite tons of marketing $$$ and a plethora of ever-more-finely-shaded variations on a theme (last time I looked there were at least 50 or 60 flavors of Gibson J-45 that have been offered since 1989), a plain-Jane example built as a run of Guitar Center-specials pretty much mopped the floor with my memories of a couple hundred vintage guitars. Sometimes the tributes/copies/homages are superior to the originals.
Besides, I'd rather create my own patina of use than buy it. At least with bikes nobody's building new bikes and making them look like they've been dragged behind a burning truck, unlike the "relic" thing in guitars.
Likes For rustystrings61:
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Medford MA
Posts: 2,089
Bikes: Ron Cooper touring, 1959 Jack Taylor 650b ladyback touring tandem, Vitus 979, Joe Bell painted Claud Butler Dalesman, Colin Laing curved tube tandem, heavily-Dilberted 1982 Trek 6xx, René Herse tandem
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 964 Post(s)
Liked 1,451 Times
in
723 Posts
I was wondering when the simulacrum would come up.
Just learned that word a month or two ago, listening to a Joanna Newsom song about a civilization that discovers time travel and decides to colonize the past - and is defeated by its past self in some nested iterative process. She's always teaching me new words.
Just learned that word a month or two ago, listening to a Joanna Newsom song about a civilization that discovers time travel and decides to colonize the past - and is defeated by its past self in some nested iterative process. She's always teaching me new words.
__________________
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Likes For scarlson:
#28
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,053
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3015 Post(s)
Liked 3,792 Times
in
1,406 Posts
Right there.
Likes For iab:
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,053
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3015 Post(s)
Liked 3,792 Times
in
1,406 Posts
Ooops. Wrong game.
#30
seńor miembro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,620
Bikes: '70s - '80s Campagnolo
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3877 Post(s)
Liked 6,466 Times
in
3,198 Posts
I saw the 2010 French film, Certified Copy last night and thought it would be a c&v good discussion, like the above post 28 proved ... but also didn't want to constrain it.
#31
(rhymes with spook)
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Winslow, AR
Posts: 2,788
Bikes: '83 univega gran turismo x2, '85 schwinn super le tour,'89 miyata triple cross, '91 GT tequesta, '90 yokota grizzly peak, '94 GT backwoods, '95'ish scott tampico, '98 bonty privateer, '93 mongoose crossway 625, '98 parkpre ariel, 2k'ish giant fcr3
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Liked 745 Times
in
546 Posts
I saw the 2010 French film, Certified Copy last night and thought it would be a c&v good discussion, like the above post 28 proved ... but also didn't want to constrain it.
#32
seńor miembro
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Pac NW
Posts: 6,620
Bikes: '70s - '80s Campagnolo
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3877 Post(s)
Liked 6,466 Times
in
3,198 Posts
Where's the original? For the most part, I don't care. Except with some recorded music. And some movies. Like Chaplin's '42 rerelease of The Gold Rush. He took this perfect thing and made it unfunny. Fortunately, we still have the '25 version.
With bikes, I applaud original paint. None of the components need be original, but it's preferred they're in the ballpark. I was told this '72 Torpado possibly came with a cottered crank and Universal brakeset. The original owner couldn't remember, but did replace them with mid-'70s Sugino and Dura Ace. He didn't spring for Campagnolo. But, for me, it's far better than original. And I replaced his Record rd with NR. On the downside, Tubular guys might feel I did a disservice to the original by replacing the rims with wire-on.
Better than original? Yes. Especially now through time. Surely, all these countless trips around the sun -- and now with a new owner -- have made it that much better.
With bikes, I applaud original paint. None of the components need be original, but it's preferred they're in the ballpark. I was told this '72 Torpado possibly came with a cottered crank and Universal brakeset. The original owner couldn't remember, but did replace them with mid-'70s Sugino and Dura Ace. He didn't spring for Campagnolo. But, for me, it's far better than original. And I replaced his Record rd with NR. On the downside, Tubular guys might feel I did a disservice to the original by replacing the rims with wire-on.
Better than original? Yes. Especially now through time. Surely, all these countless trips around the sun -- and now with a new owner -- have made it that much better.
Likes For SurferRosa:
#33
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,984
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26400 Post(s)
Liked 10,373 Times
in
7,202 Posts
...two opinions:
1. Original paint is highly overrated. Rarely is it as durable as a urethane repaint. It's nice when it happens, but iff you find a bike you really, really have been looking for, in your size, repainting it or paying someone to repaint it is not that big a deal.
Nothing on this bike is original except the frame and fork.
Same thing here. It's all done with mirrors.
2. Originalism as a judicial philosophy is ethically bankrupt, and highly dependent on historical dictionary definitions. Anything more would need to be moved to teh P+R.
1. Original paint is highly overrated. Rarely is it as durable as a urethane repaint. It's nice when it happens, but iff you find a bike you really, really have been looking for, in your size, repainting it or paying someone to repaint it is not that big a deal.
Nothing on this bike is original except the frame and fork.
Same thing here. It's all done with mirrors.
2. Originalism as a judicial philosophy is ethically bankrupt, and highly dependent on historical dictionary definitions. Anything more would need to be moved to teh P+R.
#34
Disco Infiltrator
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 13,446
Bikes: Stormchaser, Paramount, Tilt, Samba tandem
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3126 Post(s)
Liked 2,103 Times
in
1,367 Posts
The original is not as good as the engineer wanted it to be. Platonic ideal, etc.
Likes For Darth Lefty:
#35
Phyllo-buster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 8,846
Bikes: roadsters, club bikes, fixed and classic
Mentioned: 133 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2297 Post(s)
Liked 2,054 Times
in
1,254 Posts
Dredd (2012) is far superior to Judge Dredd (1995) Of course the first had a serious liability with Stallone in the lead...ugh.
#36
Senior Member
Original is in the eye of the beholder, hence I'm an Original.
#37
Full Member
"Using an elaborate variety of tools, materials, and machines, W-M Corporation turned out a constant flow of forgeries of pre-war American artifacts. These forgeries were cautiously but expertly fed into the wholesale art object market, to join the genuine objects collected throughout the continent. As in the stamp and coin business, no one could possibly estimate the percentage of forgeries in circulation. And no one—especially the dealers and the collectors themselves—wanted to." --Philip K. Dick "The Man in the High Castle"
Does the object "speak" to you? For some, a repainted, re-decaled, fully restored bike loses some ineffable something--- even replacing cable housing is considered a transgression against "originality". For others, the pleasure of having something old lies in brining it back to new (or better than new) condition.
But the value or "originality" is a fiction created by some kind of collective agreement or shared belief. If a forgery is indistinguishable from the original, where does the difference in value reside other than in the mind of the collectors?
Does the object "speak" to you? For some, a repainted, re-decaled, fully restored bike loses some ineffable something--- even replacing cable housing is considered a transgression against "originality". For others, the pleasure of having something old lies in brining it back to new (or better than new) condition.
But the value or "originality" is a fiction created by some kind of collective agreement or shared belief. If a forgery is indistinguishable from the original, where does the difference in value reside other than in the mind of the collectors?
#39
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Point Reyes Station, California
Posts: 4,526
Bikes: Indeed!
Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1506 Post(s)
Liked 3,469 Times
in
1,131 Posts
The lovely replacement stop pin mounted to the cage of this Record derailleur was made by @rootboy and sent to me as a gift.
As a result of that hand work and that generous gesture it is worth considerably more to me than an original.
Brent
As a result of that hand work and that generous gesture it is worth considerably more to me than an original.
Brent
Likes For obrentharris:
#40
Full Member
Of course!
It's a bit disquieting to think about, but the value of currency depends on our collective agreement to give it value when negotiating exchange for goods or services. That's why the value of currencies fluctuate, and why currencies can lose value suddenly if there's a collective loss of faith. Money has value because we decide it does.... and because it's easier to trade for a "carrier of value" like money than to insist on goods/services in trade. If I'm a carpenter who repairs your deck, I'd rather have a flexible, portable, stable form of value than 500 eggs, or a llama, or whatever you would offer in trade with me.
Another example: my wife thinks my old bikes are not worth much at all, and she sees no real beauty in them. Whereas to me, they are both beautiful and valuable. Who is right? Both and neither.
Likes For no67el:
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,474
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 3,372 Times
in
1,578 Posts
original?
well, this is 100% original..... mostly because I haven't had the heart to actually use it and scratch up the wood soles when flipping pedals over.
This '74 Raleigh International is probably over 90% original.
I laced MA-2 rims onto the hubs, in interest of riding clinchers instead of tubulars.. and the original AVA rims weren't that hot. Still have the original sew-ups, rims, and spokes, in case there is a reason to convert back.
I sold the freewheel to another fellow, mostly because I didn't want to mess with the particular brand. It is fitted with a 5 speed SunTour now.
The biggest alteration is that a light & discrete clear coat was applied to the frame by Brian Baylis. I knew how fragile the Raleigh paint jobs were and wanted to minimize the damage.
The bar tape, chain, and just about everything else is original, though, which I enjoy.
On a more personal level, I recall hearing that the material in a person's bones changes every seven years. Material is slowly replaced with other material, and eventually it's not the same bone it used to be. Weird, but interesting.
Steve in Peoria
well, this is 100% original..... mostly because I haven't had the heart to actually use it and scratch up the wood soles when flipping pedals over.
This '74 Raleigh International is probably over 90% original.
I laced MA-2 rims onto the hubs, in interest of riding clinchers instead of tubulars.. and the original AVA rims weren't that hot. Still have the original sew-ups, rims, and spokes, in case there is a reason to convert back.
I sold the freewheel to another fellow, mostly because I didn't want to mess with the particular brand. It is fitted with a 5 speed SunTour now.
The biggest alteration is that a light & discrete clear coat was applied to the frame by Brian Baylis. I knew how fragile the Raleigh paint jobs were and wanted to minimize the damage.
The bar tape, chain, and just about everything else is original, though, which I enjoy.
On a more personal level, I recall hearing that the material in a person's bones changes every seven years. Material is slowly replaced with other material, and eventually it's not the same bone it used to be. Weird, but interesting.
Steve in Peoria
Likes For steelbikeguy:
#43
(rhymes with spook)
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Winslow, AR
Posts: 2,788
Bikes: '83 univega gran turismo x2, '85 schwinn super le tour,'89 miyata triple cross, '91 GT tequesta, '90 yokota grizzly peak, '94 GT backwoods, '95'ish scott tampico, '98 bonty privateer, '93 mongoose crossway 625, '98 parkpre ariel, 2k'ish giant fcr3
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 919 Post(s)
Liked 745 Times
in
546 Posts
Likes For thook:
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 4,474
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1829 Post(s)
Liked 3,372 Times
in
1,578 Posts
on the slippery question of "original", I'm reminded of a reproduction(?) of a WW II aircraft that I've seen a couple of times.
There is a very limited supply of fighter aircraft from WWII, and the prices reflect that. As such, it has become somewhat practical to actually build new examples of these aircraft. Within the last 10 years, I think, someone built a small run of Focke-Wulf Fw190 fighter aircraft. They were built per the factory prints and were functionally and visually identical (I've been told). Beautiful aircraft, and I was chatting with a fellow when I saw this one (below).
He told me about how it was built, and I asked "So it is a reproduction?".
"No, it's original because it was built in the same way as the planes built in the 1940's", was the reply.
I wasn't quite convinced, but I can understand that it as close to those 1940's aircraft as is currently possible.
Of course, you can go to a museum and see a 1940's Fw190 built in wartime Germany, using all of the original processes and possibly shortcuts, original materials, etc. Of course, some museums will clean up the aircraft, touch up the paint, fix some damage, etc.
This is the Fw190 at the Smithsonian Udvar-Hazy National Air & Space Museum
In a somewhat similar situation in the bike world, I've seen a replica Colnago Super built by Brian Baylis. It does say "built by Brian Baylis" on the chainstay, but otherwise looks like a Colnago Super. If you'd always wanted a Colnago Super in your size, this seems like a reasonable way to do it.
and finally, and only loosely related to the idea of "original", I have seen Richard Sachs display a cyclocross bike at NAHBS that was still covered in mud.
That's authentic!
Steve in Peoria
There is a very limited supply of fighter aircraft from WWII, and the prices reflect that. As such, it has become somewhat practical to actually build new examples of these aircraft. Within the last 10 years, I think, someone built a small run of Focke-Wulf Fw190 fighter aircraft. They were built per the factory prints and were functionally and visually identical (I've been told). Beautiful aircraft, and I was chatting with a fellow when I saw this one (below).
He told me about how it was built, and I asked "So it is a reproduction?".
"No, it's original because it was built in the same way as the planes built in the 1940's", was the reply.
I wasn't quite convinced, but I can understand that it as close to those 1940's aircraft as is currently possible.
Of course, you can go to a museum and see a 1940's Fw190 built in wartime Germany, using all of the original processes and possibly shortcuts, original materials, etc. Of course, some museums will clean up the aircraft, touch up the paint, fix some damage, etc.
This is the Fw190 at the Smithsonian Udvar-Hazy National Air & Space Museum
In a somewhat similar situation in the bike world, I've seen a replica Colnago Super built by Brian Baylis. It does say "built by Brian Baylis" on the chainstay, but otherwise looks like a Colnago Super. If you'd always wanted a Colnago Super in your size, this seems like a reasonable way to do it.
and finally, and only loosely related to the idea of "original", I have seen Richard Sachs display a cyclocross bike at NAHBS that was still covered in mud.
That's authentic!
Steve in Peoria