How can weight lifting help?
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 469 Times
in
250 Posts
This week I've just started lifting, if you can call it that. Squats, Deadlifts, and Single Leg Press. 3x4 and 3x3 the next, for 3x a week. For weight conscious climbers that seems to be the best plan; building strength without mass. Right now I'm probably doing 60% of1rm, and I'll build that up and be there for a few weeks, take a few weeks off and start again at 60%.
I don't expect this to make me a sprinter, just make my body a bit stronger and more efficient. Some studies have shown this works, we'll see how it goes.
I don't expect this to make me a sprinter, just make my body a bit stronger and more efficient. Some studies have shown this works, we'll see how it goes.
Likes For furiousferret:
#28
Senior Member
Well, it can make you so sore that you'll forget all about how much your butt hurts.
#29
☢
This week I've just started lifting, if you can call it that. Squats, Deadlifts, and Single Leg Press. 3x4 and 3x3 the next, for 3x a week. For weight conscious climbers that seems to be the best plan; building strength without mass. Right now I'm probably doing 60% of1rm, and I'll build that up and be there for a few weeks, take a few weeks off and start again at 60%.
I don't expect this to make me a sprinter, just make my body a bit stronger and more efficient. Some studies have shown this works, we'll see how it goes.
I don't expect this to make me a sprinter, just make my body a bit stronger and more efficient. Some studies have shown this works, we'll see how it goes.
If your goal is as stated. For better overall health the ratio might be more balanced.
#30
Full Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times
in
57 Posts
I’ll preface by saying I’m actually new to cycling...so feel free to skip my comment ; )
But if you want to gauge hamstring weakness, even light, dumbbell, Romanian deadlifts can show you where you are. They target hamstrings and glutes and minimize quad involvement since you stop before your knees bend too much. Try just 40lbs in each hand, 3x10, maybe even 2x10 if it’s your first time, and your hamstrings may be sore for a couple of days.
Its actually tough, I’m finding, to work my leg day, basically just 5x8-12 goblet squats and 4x8-12 Romanian deadlifts into cycling since I usually need 2 days of recovery. Probably be less sore if I went lighter for higher reps. And cycling specific plans would be structured to minimize DOMS. Goblet squats are great, you automatically use perfect form and less injury risk reportedly.
Cycling obviously hits quads hard but Romanian deadlifts will balance strength in your hamstrings and glutes. You just feel more balanced and stronger in general. AlthoughI couldn’t say how specific the benefits are to cycling.
But if you want to gauge hamstring weakness, even light, dumbbell, Romanian deadlifts can show you where you are. They target hamstrings and glutes and minimize quad involvement since you stop before your knees bend too much. Try just 40lbs in each hand, 3x10, maybe even 2x10 if it’s your first time, and your hamstrings may be sore for a couple of days.
Its actually tough, I’m finding, to work my leg day, basically just 5x8-12 goblet squats and 4x8-12 Romanian deadlifts into cycling since I usually need 2 days of recovery. Probably be less sore if I went lighter for higher reps. And cycling specific plans would be structured to minimize DOMS. Goblet squats are great, you automatically use perfect form and less injury risk reportedly.
Cycling obviously hits quads hard but Romanian deadlifts will balance strength in your hamstrings and glutes. You just feel more balanced and stronger in general. AlthoughI couldn’t say how specific the benefits are to cycling.
Last edited by CyclingBK; 09-21-19 at 05:00 PM.
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
...
But if you want to gauge hamstring weakness, even light, dumbbell, Romanian deadlifts can show you where you are. They target hamstrings and glutes and minimize quad involvement since you stop before your knees bend too much. Try just 40lbs in each hand, 3x10, maybe even 2x10 if it’s your first time, and your hamstrings may be sore for a couple of days....ced and stronger in general. AlthoughI couldn’t say how specific the benefits are to cycling.
But if you want to gauge hamstring weakness, even light, dumbbell, Romanian deadlifts can show you where you are. They target hamstrings and glutes and minimize quad involvement since you stop before your knees bend too much. Try just 40lbs in each hand, 3x10, maybe even 2x10 if it’s your first time, and your hamstrings may be sore for a couple of days....ced and stronger in general. AlthoughI couldn’t say how specific the benefits are to cycling.
If you have gears and a road bike a stomp stomp pedal stroke will generally create more power than a smooth full range stroke. A balanced muscle system does not generate more power / speed. Then there is the increased mass. Cycling is a cardiovascular sport. Lifting body mass takes energy. I have seen the neuromuscular results from super heavy weights more beneficial than generating larger muscles. The video below is old and I have posted it many times. This is a real good cycling set I recorded of junior at age 15 with real good results from the riders that did it. He has since started using a program from a USAC training coach. The routines are quite close.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
A month later Dec 7 was a very serious grass roots ride with 7 or so National Champs of some class, and the 2X Kona triathlon bike record setter in the final group.
Best I have measured then was 22W/kg a week or so before. I think this was higher considering who was there. Thing is the others that did this program with THIS (guy spotting above) coach got similar results. One is a pro, the other a gold medal winner.
Best I have measured then was 22W/kg a week or so before. I think this was higher considering who was there. Thing is the others that did this program with THIS (guy spotting above) coach got similar results. One is a pro, the other a gold medal winner.
#33
Full Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times
in
57 Posts
What may be best for physique and overall balance is not be best for going fast cycling. Hamstrings are not so useful for cycling. As such some of the cycling weight trainers do not spec Romainian deadlifts, or full squats. Some folks that like the gym, or track, are into them. I am not a trainer, but I do hire them and have been into this some 40 years. Full range of motion is not so beneficial.
If you have gears and a road bike a stomp stomp pedal stroke will generally create more power than a smooth full range stroke. A balanced muscle system does not generate more power / speed. Then there is the increased mass. Cycling is a cardiovascular sport. Lifting body mass takes energy. I have seen the neuromuscular results from super heavy weights more beneficial than generating larger muscles. The video below is old and I have posted it many times. This is a real good cycling set I recorded of junior at age 15 with real good results from the riders that did it. He has since started using a program from a USAC training coach. The routines are quite close.
https://youtu.be/hjSbJMaBu3k
If you have gears and a road bike a stomp stomp pedal stroke will generally create more power than a smooth full range stroke. A balanced muscle system does not generate more power / speed. Then there is the increased mass. Cycling is a cardiovascular sport. Lifting body mass takes energy. I have seen the neuromuscular results from super heavy weights more beneficial than generating larger muscles. The video below is old and I have posted it many times. This is a real good cycling set I recorded of junior at age 15 with real good results from the riders that did it. He has since started using a program from a USAC training coach. The routines are quite close.
https://youtu.be/hjSbJMaBu3k
The vid shows some pretty heavy seated leg curls (20 seconds in) which focus on and isolate the hamstrings.
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
So sounds like a total contradiction to what I posted, but they are not for go forward, rather to balance the quads and warm up for the leg press.
#35
Full Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times
in
57 Posts
Even if the hamstrings arent aren’t a major contributor to cycling, even light deadlifts will strengthen the entire posterior chain of big muscles (calves, hamstrings, glutes, low back, and even mid/uppper back/traps and core) that, regardless of athletic endeavor, will provide a stronger structure/foundation for the muscles that are most active contributors.
#36
commu*ist spy
I do cycling for fun, fitness etc. However, I also want to keep a good balance, and this just this ain't natural
I've been doing sets of 33 push ups, 11 pull ups (balance the push ups), and 1 leg squats (because nobody else does them and it looks impressive)
over time, I plan to also mix in some core stuff in between the sets.
I've been doing sets of 33 push ups, 11 pull ups (balance the push ups), and 1 leg squats (because nobody else does them and it looks impressive)
over time, I plan to also mix in some core stuff in between the sets.
#37
☢
Most other pros end their extreme training (getting way out of shape) once their careers have ended. I wouldn't say the cyclist physique is unhealthy, but it certainly is unbalanced.
I've been doing sets of 33 push ups, 11 pull ups (balance the push ups), and 1 leg squats (because nobody else does them and it looks impressive)
over time, I plan to also mix in some core stuff in between the sets.
over time, I plan to also mix in some core stuff in between the sets.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
If you want to lift to be fast, you have to train a bit differently than most trainers train/teach.
#39
commu*ist spy
The issue is that cyclist (like other pro athletes) are primarily concerned with being the best at their sport, which is the primary source of their income. Their overall health takes a backseat during that period since they know they only have a limited time to compete.
Most other pros end their extreme training (getting way out of shape) once their careers have ended. I wouldn't say the cyclist physique is unhealthy, but it certainly is unbalanced.
Well don't wait too long to get to that core stuff. That's vital to your physical health and comfort since almost everyone suffers from back pain. I've always been an ab guy, but the imbalance is beginning to show with age. I try to isolate lower back now at least twice a week. So far, its working.
Most other pros end their extreme training (getting way out of shape) once their careers have ended. I wouldn't say the cyclist physique is unhealthy, but it certainly is unbalanced.
Well don't wait too long to get to that core stuff. That's vital to your physical health and comfort since almost everyone suffers from back pain. I've always been an ab guy, but the imbalance is beginning to show with age. I try to isolate lower back now at least twice a week. So far, its working.
I consider pushups somewhat of a core workout. Same with stretching, depending on how you do it. I've only started maybe 2 weeks ago, and have been steadily increasing the volume. it's not really strength training. more like maintaining overall fitness.
I've also picked up running and ultimate frisbee, just because it rains so damn much here. It's pretty refreshing to not be a pure cyclist.
Last edited by spectastic; 09-23-19 at 12:13 AM.
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,570
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 679 Times
in
430 Posts
I don't know if any of you follow Kate Courtney on Twitter or Instagram, but if not, it might be worth doing so. She frequently posts videos from her gym sessions. They are impressive. And the weight work she has been doing certainly hasn't held her back at all.
It will be very different from the videos Doge posted.
And if you want to see heavy lifting, follow some track sprinters, who are more like power lifters who ride bikes - sometimes.
It will be very different from the videos Doge posted.
And if you want to see heavy lifting, follow some track sprinters, who are more like power lifters who ride bikes - sometimes.
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
I don't know if any of you follow Kate Courtney on Twitter or Instagram, but if not, it might be worth doing so. She frequently posts videos from her gym sessions. They are impressive. And the weight work she has been doing certainly hasn't held her back at all.
It will be very different from the videos Doge posted.
And if you want to see heavy lifting, follow some track sprinters, who are more like power lifters who ride bikes - sometimes.
It will be very different from the videos Doge posted.
And if you want to see heavy lifting, follow some track sprinters, who are more like power lifters who ride bikes - sometimes.
We've see Sagan training videos and those are different too, as would be track.
For reference:
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Posts: 6,313
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 842 Post(s)
Liked 469 Times
in
250 Posts
Cycling is a pretty diverse sport, and what works for 1 person won't work for others. I wouldn't tell a climber or TT'er to train like a sprinter or xc'er.
In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.
This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.
This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
Likes For furiousferret:
#43
Senior Member
But if you want to gauge hamstring weakness, even light, dumbbell, Romanian deadlifts can show you where you are. They target hamstrings and glutes and minimize quad involvement since you stop before your knees bend too much. Try just 40lbs in each hand, 3x10, maybe even 2x10 if it’s your first time, and your hamstrings may be sore for a couple of days.
#44
☢
Cycling is a pretty diverse sport, and what works for 1 person won't work for others. I wouldn't tell a climber or TT'er to train like a sprinter or xc'er.
In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.
This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.
This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 7,570
Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1852 Post(s)
Liked 679 Times
in
430 Posts
Her training (video below) is very similar to what my daughter did for goal keeping. And not surprisingly as the kind of things MTB/cx put you through vs road racing. I think the side to side, core, jump coordination stuff she is doing is not going to help a road racer as much as squats and leg presses. I MTB rider does use more upper body than all but a sprinter.
We've see Sagan training videos and those are different too, as would be track.
We've see Sagan training videos and those are different too, as would be track.
I still cant figure out why, but I never feel RDL in my hamstrings or glutes. Worked up to sets of 10 with 300 lbs and just got a tired lower back and grip. I tried the single leg version with half the weight to isolate legs more than back. The legs feel it but more all over trying to stabilize than targeting hamstrings. OTOH my wife tried RDL and super DOMS in her hamstrings the next day.
#46
Full Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 92 Post(s)
Liked 88 Times
in
57 Posts
I still cant figure out why, but I never feel RDL in my hamstrings or glutes. Worked up to sets of 10 with 300 lbs and just got a tired lower back and grip. I tried the single leg version with half the weight to isolate legs more than back. The legs feel it but more all over trying to stabilize than targeting hamstrings. OTOH my wife tried RDL and super DOMS in her hamstrings the next day.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,476
Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753
Mentioned: 153 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3377 Post(s)
Liked 371 Times
in
253 Posts
They do not isolate the legs as well as a machine. And I *think* the machines are less risk, at least at the same weight. Some of the top Japan track racers use just the press with single leg.
Unfortunately most videos are about getting big - mass building. The range of motion (ROM) is a big thing to them because a good ROM builds a bigger muscle.
They are into driving through heals (as mine did - to target quads/glutes) except cyclist use the ball of their feet, a Q factor and quite limited ROM. So proper gym technique may not be best for the cyclist, but you don't want to get hurt, and in general you do NOT want mass.
Below is an old one for my daughter where the focus was explosion (jumping higher). For that we focused on the best machine for that. This was an early video when we just got the machine.
I think maybe as a smaller stroke it could be a good cyclist tool too. The ROM is too big for a cyclist.
At the time (and likely still) it was popular for the elite girls to do a crossfit thing, similar to our MTB champion.
Mine has a specific goal as an under tall goal keeper wanting to play for the top D1 college - jump higher.
So mine used this machine, and then took lots and lots of soccer ball shots in training.
This would be similar to a cyclist (road vs crit vs track) focusing on just a few gym exercises for going faster then just riding miles.
The point being you need to pick the machine and routine for what you want to do, don't do extra and do your sport. Test in competition.
Little bro (the one in the video above) wanted to use it too. We let him try, then just had him do hill repeats with mom. We didn't want him getting big :-)
Likes For Doge:
#48
Version 7.0
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 13,132
Bikes: Too Many
Mentioned: 297 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1343 Post(s)
Liked 2,484 Times
in
1,459 Posts
Cycling is a pretty diverse sport, and what works for 1 person won't work for others. I wouldn't tell a climber or TT'er to train like a sprinter or xc'er.
In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.
This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
In 2014 -2016 I had a pretty solid good upper body and some decent guns. Think Spiderman. Back then I raced at 152-155 and probably could have went to 145. That didn't work for me. I was too heavy and didn't have the pop to justify that weight. This year I raced at 132-135, and vastly improved. Losing that mass the only thing I've lost is power under 30 seconds, everything else has went up, and in a light shell. I'd wager my crit performance would even be better.
This is a great conversation for general road cycling, but this is a racers forum. You have to find your niche and maximize it. For some that means keeping light by all means necessary. Its also why I don't read 90% of the weight training advice on the internet. Most are written by personal trainers, weekend racers, and bloggers trying to fill content. When Nairo Quintana starts doing bench presses then maybe I'll do the same.
I have trained as a track sprinter and as an enduro. Sprinting is a maximal effort so leg freshness and max strength are the focus and weight less so. Endurance racing, even sprinting in a points race or road crit is sub maximum so strength is not as important and fatigue / long term training stress are the important metrics. Endurance is a speed killer.
Having said that, an endurance sprinter has to have enough endurance to make it to 200 meters before the finish line to sprint before the race is over.
Likes For Hermes:
#49
out walking the earth
The question that isn't asked or answered is 'getting better at what.' As pointed out there are loads of studies and conflicting evidence. Everyone knows someone with some anecdotal evidence, but little is corroborated in the studies, which the exception that weight training is proven to help in some very specific applications (i.e. short standing start stuff, for example). If your goal is to improve as a road racer it may well be that your best bet is to ride and rest. And by rest I mean rest. No 'rest protocol,' but rest. If your goal is overall health and fitness it may be to include weight training. The caveat on that is few people actually spend the time learning how to properly do exercises to avoid injury, and there's a real tendency to macho the weights and unnecessarily add poundage at the expense of proper form. I did loads of single leg stuff to really hone in on proper form. I've lifted for nearly 40 years. That said, after a slew of injuries I've sold all my gear and really just ride and do yoga now. I'm in a discipline that encourages pencil arms and skinny bodies. Plus there are studies that support the idea that one can simply do yoga as an overall health and fitness routine. I think one should also be cautious about using Doge's kid as a test case for anything. He simply can be good doing whatever he wants. He's one of those kids people know who is almost good enough to be almost pro. The last bit probably being the insane desire to simply focus on doing it. I've known guys who could show up at races untrained and ride away from the field for the win. There's a reason they raced pro once. Most of us aren't that. To look at what folks like that do and map it over to something that looks like 3 hours of riding and a bunch of weight sessions, with the expectation to be competitive in our own races might lead to a bit of disappointment.
Likes For gsteinb: