Flounce

I rode a 200km yesterday, strong headwinds during the last 2-3 hours, felt terrible at the end, exhausted and cramping and nauseous, didn't feel like eating any more energy bars and even water didn't seem to go down right.

So I had been working on nutrition and didn't think the issue was nutrition but fitness. But the end of rides have always been very hard for me, and after talking to the experienced randos afterwards I realized that I am likely *always* bonking at the end of my rides, and I've never even ridden longer than a double century.

I've tried to get 200-300 calories an hour through carbohydrate powder in the water bottle PLUS an energy bar every other hour or so (lara bars and cliff bars, 180-230 calories each), . I try to avoid "real" foods (like an egg mcmuffin sandwich or tuna sandwich) because when I've done that in the past, my body slows down considerably and it takes 90 minutes at least to digest and get back to normal. I had decided to stop eating real food.

On yesterday's brevet, the experienced randonneurs ate at a Wendy's about halfway through the ride. Sandwich , french fries, soda, whole nine yards. Stuff like that would make me have to take a dump later on in the ride. I was riding with them (okay, I was riding behind them to draft and so I don't have to navigate the route) and wasn't eating real food, so while they ate I just hung out thinking about maybe I should be eating something solid, too.

My conclusion after yesterday's discussion was that I should be eating real food/meal every 5 or 6 hours, and that energy bars plus powder-in-water are , alone, not enough.

Thoughts? I know nutrition's like saddles: a very individual thing, everybody has to figure what works for them. But just wanted to see if my thought process was reasonable.

(another thought is that - in an effort to stay with the guys I was riding with, I was riding faster than my natural slowpoke pace, and perhaps I should have just ridden my own ride.)

CAT7RDR

A little more information would be helpful. How many feet of climb? Calories burned vs consumed pre-ride and during the ride? Total fluids ingested during ride? Any supplements like Endurolytes to offset depletion of electrolytes? Your height and weight?

For myself, I had similar symptoms on century rides. I simply did not account for burning up to 10,000 calories on a ride and needing 200 ounces of fluid half containing Cytosport to properly hydrate. Of course this depends on altitude gains, winds, heat and type of bike used.

I am 6'2", 215 lbs. I add supplements containing sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium and beet powder. This has helped me immensely. I make it a point to stop and properly hydrate every 10 miles and eat fig bars, nut bars, Clif gels and Stingers every 20 miles. Otherwise, I'm toast.

It took me a couple of years experimenting and figuring what proper nutrition and hydration needs I required. Like you, I cannot tolerate a heavy meal on century rides.

If you are nauseous and cannot keep water down, you may be in heat exhaustion and need to get to an ER. This happened to me.

rhm

I hear you @Flounce, and though I'm afraid I'll have nothing useful to add, I share your pain.

For what it's worth, I've been reading the nutritional advice on this subforum for a few years now, and to the extent one followed it, it has done me more harm than good. Nutrition works best for me when I go my own pace, don't think about food, and eat anything and everything that looks appetizing at the time. Lately I've been carrying little whole wheat pita breads stuffed with salami and cheese, and eating one just before each controle early in the ride. Later in the ride they loose their attraction so I switch to more sugary stuff. This is definitely not advice, but it seems to work for me.

Trying to keep up with the fast kids has also messed me up many times. I still do it, but I know it's not a good idea.

unterhausen

I'm a big fan of eating real food. I can generally make it through a 200k without doing that, but on longer rides, you'll have trouble making it on other types of food. I suggest you try it and take some toilet paper and hand wipes.

I ate so many energy bars early in my rando career that I can't even think about eating them now without risking a gag reflex. I have a lot of trouble eating on long rides. I figured out this year that one of those reasons was that I can't tolerate potassium very well. Started taking "Salt Sticks" instead for cramping issues. I have been using liquid nutrition to start a ride since I tended to get behind on my calories early. This has helped me avoid the dreaded slump from 50-100 miles that I always used to have. I mix my own powder, 5 scoops of carb powder with 1/3 cup protein powder.

One thing to think about is training to not need food so badly. Ride 40-50 miles without eating anything. On a lot of 1200k's, it's common to only stop every 100km. There have been times where I have ridden 100km without eating and had to remind myself to eat.

ThermionicScott 

Bonking at the end is better than bonking at the beginning or middle.

unterhausen

I dunno, I bonked at mile 99 of a century once because I had no food and I was riding with a very fast group. Took me a couple of hours to get to the end, because I stopped and took a nap.

sch

To some degree your gut has to learn how to metabolize a significant caloric load during a long (200+) miles ride.
There is a maximum amount your stomach can deliver to the rest of the gut which limits fluid replacement to at
best what you are losing, but more typically you can't keep up with fluid losses. Hence the value of rest stops
such as the Wendy's your compatriots stopped at or an hour or three of naps for 300k or more rides. These stops
allow some equilibration of fluid ingested in your gut and the rest of your body. You might keep track of before and
after weight to get an idea of where your fluid balance is, though you could also perhaps get some blood drawn
and see what your chemistries are upto as well (IIRC you are an MD and this might be feasible for you).

kingston 

I think the most important thing is to not try to ride too fast at the beginning. That's when I get in trouble. There are always some fast guys on a 200k that I have to remind myself to let go early in the ride.

Someone told me once that your body adapts to getting by on little food if you train that way, so I try to consume very few calories on training rides and nearly all liquid calories on brevets. Early in the season I usually do a fasted ~100k once a week on two 28oz. bottles of 1/2 strength gatorade just to practice longer rides with few calories. Yesterday I did a fasted imperial century with two bottles of gatorade and two powerbars. On brevets I try to drink a bottle of gatorade and a bottle of maltodextrin/protien powder mix between each control, then something small at the control; a bottle of juice, a banana, maybe a little mini-sandwich, stuff like that. I'm not a big fan of fast food, but I'll get a McD's double cheeseburger and a coke if the guys I'm riding with at night make a stop there. If I'm by myself I don't usually stop that long. I definitely wouldn't stop to eat on a 200k.

StephenH

My opinion: You're overthinking it. Eat when you're hungry, and eat what sounds good when you're hungry. Ride at your own pace, stop when you need to, and if you need to take a dump, take a dump.


You never hear someone going to their office and saying "Okay, I'm going to eat 150 calories an hour for 5 hours, then la da da".

atwl77

I think you'll just have to accept that you're gonna need real food and proper meals, and have to train your body to get used to it, because if you're planning on riding more brevets at longer distances, there will come a time when you simply have to have proper meals. Especially when you start getting into multi-day distances, you simply have to stop and eat and not just rely on power bars and gels.

Cyclist0108

I had the same experience, but on a single Crater Lake ride. I will never be able to eat a Cliff Bar again.

Spoonrobot 

I can make this happen like clockwork by eating too much heavy proteins/fats (meat, dairy) the 1-2 days before a ride or eating too much of anything the night before a ride.

I've found that for rides longer than 100 miles I like to go to bed a little hungry the night before, eat a liquid breakfast of 250 calories or so before riding and then just eat/drink like I normally would on the ride. I generally shy away from real food since I can get by fine on clif bars, gummies and coca-cola for around 10-11 hours. After that I like real food but eaten slowly as I ride. I can't do a sit down meal and then ride with a fuller stomach.

Are you drinking 200-300 calories an hour and then every other hour drinking 200-300 calories AND an energy bar? So hour one is 200-300 calories, hour two is 200-300 calories + 250 calories? That might be too much and shutting you down as you get near the end of the ride.

I like to back-monitor my nutrition by how I can perform at the end of the ride. If I can put in a couple hard efforts in the last hour, finish slightly hungry but in a good mood then I know I've eaten well. I rarely bonk because I've learned the main thing that precludes a bonk for me is a bad attitude. If I notice negative thoughts, frustration at normal things, etc. I eat something right away. Also remember to chew, chew, chew. It's elementary but very important.

What are you eating leading up to the ride? Days before and for breakfast? How do you feel 1-2 hours after the ride ends and then the next day or two?

Machka 

That's your problem right there!! I'd be sick on energy bars if that's all I ate.


I aim to eat about 500 calories before the ride. This is oriental (ramen) noodles or maybe a couple pieces of toast. I prefer the noodles if the ride is going to be particularly long and especially if there's a chance it will be hot. They've got a lot of sodium.

On the bicycle, I nibble on good granola bars, oatmeal raisin cookies, other sorts of cookies (whatever I can find in bakeries that looks appealing), and gummy lollies. I've even been known to travel with cheezies or doritoes in my handlebar bag!




At each stop, I try to have something savoury.

At a quick stop, it might be a packet of potato chips, bottle of real coke, and maybe an ice cream bar if it is hot.

At a longer stop, it might be sandwiches, chips (think "fish & chips" - thick-cut french fries), dim sims, a meat pie ... plus the bottle of real coke and maybe an ice cream. In Canada, it was things like chicken croissants, perogies, maybe scrambled eggs.

Generally, I aim to eat whatever I'm craving when I go into the shop. I recall I was on a 600K a number of years ago, and all I wanted was chicken. So hungry for chicken. Unfortunately, all the place had was a footlong beef sub. When I crave chicken I know I'm after protein, so I took the beef sub and inhaled it in about 3 seconds flat. But about 20 minutes later, I had all kinds of energy on the bicycle!!


So, as a general guideline ...

500 cal for breakfast.
Aim for about 200 cal/hour on the bicycle.
Stop every 5 or 6 hours for a longer stop where I'll have something more substantial ... 500+ calories.

And BTW - all I drink is water on the bicycle, except on really rare occasions. When I stop, that's when I'll go for a sugar-laden beverage.

joewein

I have never used powders / gels / electrolyte supplements on a bike ride. They may have their place for high intensity rides like professional racing or RAAM, but not at my performance level. I have never cramped on a bike ride, which tends tends to be more a symptom of exceeding your fitness level than electrolyte problems, despite what the supplements industry wants you to believe

Fruit works really well for me, as do liquid food, bread and pastry.

At least half of my calories tend to be from bananas, though just about any kind of fruit will do - bananas just happen to be cheap and available where I ride. Fruit provides easily digested carbohydrates. There will always be a stash of dried mango strips or raisins in my front bag, in case I run out of energy somewhere without shops.

Chocolate milk or sweet milk tea provide hydration as well as being easily digested. Bread adds variety and is also mostly fast carbs. A lot of cyclists here in Japan also use onigiri (rice balls in sea weed), which every local convenience store sells 24h a day.

Towards the end of a century ride I tend to get a graving for protein and will often have a piece of chicken, but mostly I go easy on protein and fat as that makes it easier to digest carbs, which are the quickest energy source.

unterhausen

I mostly mentioned the electrolytes because the OP might have been using something like that, which can make eating difficult. If I could figure out how to bottle pickle juice, I probably would use that.

If I manage to ride myself into a situation where I get cramps, it isn't much of a relief to know that I'm exceeding my training. What happened this past year was that I over-trained, which promotes cramping. Also, the first hot day of the year coincided with the 600k I rode, so there wasn't much I could do to prepare. Heat reduces your effective fitness too, so riding past your level of fitness is really easy. Between the occasional salt stick and putting a nuun in with my carb powder, I had a lot better luck with cramping on my second SR series last year.

As far as liquid nutrition goes, if you are riding 200k-1200k, then it's going to require a lot of calories. I know that a number of randonneurs have trouble eating. I wouldn't use liquid nutrition unless I had trouble getting calories through other means. Mixing the second bottle of powder on the road is really annoying. It's not a matter of pretending to ride fast, which I don't. I can't afford to waste too much time on food, I'm too slow for that.

OldTryGuy

+1 for first bolded section but can also be helpful with regular riding. Even potato chips do not digest as fast as a gel and thus the energy does not get into your system as quickly AND the added time for digestion deprives your muscles of oxygenated blood plain and simple. At lower intensity it is not as critical as at a higher intensity output but keep in mind your effort could change.

-1 for second bolded because you do not need to exceed your fitness level but simply not sufficiently resupply as you expend. Weather can be hot and humid for a typical 100 miler being ridden at regular pace and if one does not supplement properly issues could result.

Unlike Machka I could not eat like that on my 300+ miler in 22 hours last February for fear of stomach cramps and slow pace. In 2 weeks I will attempt 400 miles in 24 hours non drafting at 2018 Bike Sebring 12/24 Hour Bike Race. Frankly do not expect to succeed, as at this moment after my Celebration Fl. Half Marathon yesterday I am experiencing some flu like symptoms and might not be able to do any further bike riding between now and then.

Take in all helpful information and see what is available on the net then experiment for yourself. Every body is different so you have to find what works for you. ENJOY the rides.

Machka 

I didn't used to be able to eat like that ... I actually had to work at it. And even now, if I go several months between long rides, I lose some of the ability to do that.

I don't get stomach cramps, I get nausea and I've lost count of the number of rides where I've been hurling in the ditch. Trouble is, that's a slippery slope ... start throwing up, stop eating .... bonk.

I found that what worked for me was to start eating right away when the ride starts, and to nibble. A bite of cookie or granola bar or a gummy lolly every 10-15 min. And I've got to stick with it. If I start letting time go between bites, it's harder to eat, and the longer I let it go, the harder it is to eat ... and then the nausea sets in and when I go to sit down to a big plate of French Toast, it doesn't go well.

But as long as I keep up the nibbling while I'm riding, I can sit down to a massive "lumberjack" breakfast the morning after a whole night's riding and feel good enough to keep going till lunch.

unterhausen

good luck at Sebring. I think it would be really hard to eat while doing that, but at least you ride by your resupply at regular intervals.

The typical U.S. convenience store doesn't have fresh chips or sushi. I have thought of buying convenience store prepared sushi while on a brevet, but I always wonder how long it has been on the shelf here in the uncultured wasteland of Pennsylvania. When my stomach is upset, I have gone many miles on fast food French fries. I recognize that it seems like it would be bad, but it works for me.

Flounce

OP here. Thank you all for the robust discussion.

Some have asked some questions. My answers are: under 4000 ft elevation gain; I'm 6 ft 1 in, 192 lbs; I didn't track fluid intake or calories, but thinking about it more, I was averaging 200 calories for the first 2/3 of the ride, and averaged under 200 calories an hour in the last third. Two days before the ride, I ate more of everything, pizza, etc. Breakfast that morning, I did not eat much, just a croissant and two small pastries and coffee. As far as how I feel right after the ride, I feel tired and nauseous. Next day or two is fine, just little sore.

I don't think I want to track my fluid and caloric volume intake very closely, even though it is one way to do this. Partly because it's too much effort and makes a brevet less fun, and partly because I'm looking for a "keep it simple, stupid, approach" that will work. Something like "eat enough before a ride; at the start don't join a group and start nibbling; eat savory foods and whatever you like, continuously; ride at your pace, eat meals when you feel it, take a dump when you need it." etc.

So it sounds like (in summary):

- Avoid too much heavy proteins/fats (meat, dairy) the 1-2 days before a ride or eating too much of anything the night before a ride.
- Try a ramen noddles meal before a meal, or something else with salt and calories
- I need more calories
- Start eating/nibbling at the start
- Consider more variety of foods that will keep my appetite strong and avoid nausea
- Avoid riding too fast at the start of the ride, avoid joining a group of riders in the beginning or err on the side of joining the slowpoke group
- I may consider avoiding riding in groups later on in the ride as well, if I don't have the discipline to listen to my body and ride at my own pace
- Stopping every 5-6 hours to eat some real food, take a short break to allow fluids and food to digest a little and equilibrate, is worth trying.
- Don't limit myself to energy bars during the ride. My new steel bike has a front rack and wire basket, so I'm going to buy some delicious stuff from trader joes to snack on, and whenever I see something portable that strikes my fancy on the ride I"ll buy it and toss it in my basket/bag to nibble on.
- Consider not drinking the sugar-laden endurance powder mix and limiting other sweet stuff like energy bars. Try more savory stuff, or whatever sounds tasty during the ride.
- Think about electrolyte supplement, and salty things.
- Consider fresh and dried fruits
- I'll accept that part of proper nutrition is stopping more often to take a dump. Bringing toilet paper and handwipes isn't just for hands.
- I need to train my body to take in those calories on a long ride
- Consider training the body to take in less calories on a long ride, as well.

Tourist in MSN

Regarding "real" food, I find that food with lots of fats like eggs, cheese or meat will slow me down for a couple hours after eating it. During those few hours I also have elevated heart rate. Once that is digested, I feel like I did before I ate.

Some foods with high protein content and minimal fats like yogurt, I don't recall those ever slowing me down so I think it is mostly the fats that are slowing me down during digestion.

My point is that if you start trying what you called real foods, that is a pretty broad topic. There are carbohydrates, sugars are faster acting carbohydrates, fats and proteins.

When I did a word search on this page, I found no mention of caffeine. That is another topic by itself. I normally drink a lot of coffee, so I think it is quite normal to start out with a liter of coffee in a couple pint size thermos bottles. I can't imagine starting out without at least a half liter of coffee on my bike. But I am sure some would say that is a huge mistake, as everybody is different.

A bit of a disclaimer here - I do not ride long randos, but I do bike touring and have had some long days riding a heavily loaded bike.

Flounce

Thanks, that is food for thought, no pun intended. When I think of real food, I think of things with some oil and fat like a slice of pizza, tuna melt, french fries, but there's definitely real food that is more lean and easier to digest.

Caffeine is a good point. I, too, normally drink lots of coffee during the work day. I take in less caffeine on long rides than I do normally, so that is an idea: a small thermos with 10 double espresso shots with lots of sugar and cream. Yeah the caffeine will dehydrate me, so that's a danger, but even the thought of having a ready supply of coffee right now gives me a boost! Worth trying.

--

more thoughts to myself: I seem to always like pizza, even when kinda nauseous. Maybe wrap up some pizza slices in saran wrap to eat on the bike. Another would be seaweed rice wraps (seaweed paper on outside, rice ball on inside), I could put anchovies or even a little some spicy indian curry or chutney on the inside of the rice ball, that would be tasty and possibly edible without getting off the bicycle.

Tourist in MSN

I think if you aim for the same amount of caffeine you would normally have each day, that is a good place to start. Then adjust from there.

In warm weather, I often have iced coffee. In cool weather I often have warm coffee that is not too hot to guzzle.

In the fall in cool weather sometimes I add a half envelope of instant coco to each half liter thermos of coffee. Shake it well before drinking as some of the coco solids settle in the bottom.

kingston 

I cut back to one cup of coffee a day during the season so it works at night when I need it. I went to zero for a while but decided that wasn't worth it.

HTupolev

I would be less concerned about dehydration than bonk exacerbation. Caffeine doesn't give you energy, it drives you to expend it faster. If you've got a significant caffeine dependency, then it's probably a good idea to have some coffee with you (and coffee pairs well with cycling anyway), but I wouldn't start with 20 espresso shots unless an entire gram of caffeine over a day is already normal for you.

OldTryGuy

This site has helped me consider what/when to eat......

https://www.freetrainers.com/forums/...s-foods-33135/

Everything on the list, except plain water, will take longer to get into your system as energy than a properly developed gel AND because of the time frame deny your muscles the oxygenated blood that is being used to DIGEST the chosen supplement.

CHICKEN....... 1 1/2 to 2 hours if no skin. Tastes yummy but not providing rapid energy if needed. Would hate to encounter a steep-fast climb 45 minutes after some chicken.

EGGS....... whole egg is 45 minutes. Just love that egg on a bagel with cheese and sausage......but cheese and sausage will add more time to digestion.

The order in which you consume nutrients will also affect the absorption rate. That longer time digestion food will cause a back-up of faster digested food if eaten first. Eating a salad, fast digestion time, BEFORE a meal, veggies-steak-potato allows for a more rapid emptying of the stomach.

Want some BBQ********** 4+ hours for the enjoyment. Best to make sure the ride is easy going with lots of conversation and picture stops.

I understand there are those who can ride and consume contrary to what I just posted, so please don't stone me but let me say that the information I have provided has helped many friends improve. I can have a double KAZAAR Nespresso in the morning 250mg caffeine with little affect yet yesterday during my Half Marathon I had a CLIFSHOT 100mg caffeine Cherry-Chocolate Energy Gel that most definitely helped.

YMMV