Chesterton

This Saturday, a friend and I rode a formal 200K brevet (the first timed brevet for either of us). It was billed as an "easy" and "mild" 200K, with only about 3,500' of climbing, but I think when experienced randonneurs say "easy" one has to take the context into account. My previous longest ride this season was about 75 miles, and my longest ride ever was a century last summer.

I found the changing mental states very interesting. Unusually, I was feeling kind of burnt out around the 40s. Only afterwards did I consider that my mood was affected by the fact that we were riding single file on the shoulder of a fairly busy road with cars buzzing by us. We stopped and ate something and I had a chocolate milk and that perked me up.

On the flip side, the miles from about 75-95 were beautiful little country lanes, with miles between cars, and we were able to ride side by side and hold a conversation. This was my favorite portion of the brevet, and I felt great during it, which was unexpected because when I did the century, I was warned that it's typical to start feeling "over it" around 70-80 miles, and that was exactly what happened for me. But on this ride, that wasn't the case at all.

We finished the ride in 11:59 and I feel completely fine a day and a half later except for some lingering numbness and weakness in my fingers. More so on my left hand - my ring and little fingers have some noticeable numbness, and running down the side of the hand under the pinky. My right hand doesn't really feel numb, but I still can notice some weakness. Even stirring with a spoon, I'm forced to use a different grip than normal. Buttoning my pants and tying shoes feels clumsy. I noticed this immediately after the brevet (my signature on the back of the brevet card was much more of a scrawl than normal), and it's still lingering now (while all other discomfort was gone by the time I woke up the next morning). There isn't any pain in my hands (and wasn't at any point), just this degradation of fine motor control.

Is this common for long distance riders? I had a little bit of this numbness (that wore off within a few days) earlier this spring after a 75 mile ride. It's never been a problem on rides up to 100 km, and perhaps oddly, it wasn't a problem on the century last year. Are there any exercises I can do this hasten the recovery of my hands?

I rode this on an 1990 steel road bike with non-aero brake levers without hoods, just the bare metal of the brake lever mount. The bars are "anatomic bend" and fairly narrow. The bars are just wrapped with cotton tape. Is this the most likely culprit? I'm planning to purchase a more appropriate bicycle for randonneuring this winter, and would like to choose components that will minimize problems like this. I'm also riding Panaracer Paselas at about 90 psi. My friend has the big lower-pressure Compass tires on his bike, and he swears by those.

Thanks for any advice! Other than the hand issues, I really had a good experience on the 200K! Randonnesia has set in enough that I'm already feeling nostalgic for it and would do it again (and I was even looking at the route for the local 300K this morning... ).

brianmcg123

I can't think of a worse set up for bars to ride a 200k brevet on.

That makes my hands hurt just thinking about it.

Yes, get some decent bars with hoods. Double wrap the tape with cork, and get you some of those Compass tires and you'll feel like your riding on marshmallows.

rm -rf

That sounds like an ulnar nerve problem. See this page on hand numbness.



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I like my shallow drop bars, with the hoods angled upward a little from horizontal. The bars are set fairly high, so that the drops are just another hand position. I've never had numbness, but my hands do ache a little if I stay on the hoods too long. Then the drops are a good change, with pressure on different parts of my palm.

And it's nice to be able to stay in the drops for a long time. It's better for my hands on rough roads, better in headwinds and downhills too.

I really like the newer hood shapes, very comfortable, with good palm support. To set the shifter position on the bar curve, I sit on the bike in a doorway, shake out my arms to get a neutral hand position, then see if the palms sit evenly on the hoods without bending my wrist.

An example photo from a different BF rider. My bars and hoods are set up similarly to this compact bar bike:

Chesterton

Thanks, that sounds like it's worth bragging rights, eh?

It is what it is... I bought the bike fairly cheap two years ago because I didn't want to spend a lot of money on a bike that I might only use a few weekends a year on charity rides, etc. Then I discovered I really enjoy riding metric centuries in the countryside, etc., and it's got a lot more use than I originally anticipated.

My winter project is buying a proper rando bike for this kind of riding.

Chesterton

Yep, that shaded area is pretty much where I feel the numbness on the left hand. I don't tend to ride in the drops much except on fast descents, but I must be putting pressure on the nerve even on the "hoods" or tops.

Thanks for the link; some interesting stuff to think about there. I don't feel overstretched in general but perhaps I'll experiment with moving the saddle forward a smidge. And of course, when setting up a new bike it'll all be important to keep in mind.

kingston 

My hands go numb on longer brevets if I'm not careful, so I do a lot of core strength work to keep the weight off my hands and make sure to move my hands around a lot when I'm on the bike.

brianmcg123

This is some double wrap marshmallowy goodness.

Although the tape is double wrapped it's not really all smooshy. It's still has a good firmness to it. But combined with 38mm tires it rides like a Lincoln Town Car.

Carbonfiberboy 

Firstly, never let that happen again. Google cyclist's palsy. Doesn't take much of that to equal permanent damage. Pay more attention to the condition of your hands on the ride.

I'm not big on soft bar tape. It's pressure that causes ulnar nerve problems. The Numb Hands post used to be the standard reply to this problem until PhotoBucket went all stupid on us, though the verbiage is still worth reading.

So it's several things:
1) Weight on your hands is IMO the most important. Move your saddle back (and adjust height) until you have little weight on your hands and can lift them off the bars for a couple seconds without sliding forward on the saddle.
2) Learn how to position your hands on the bars so as to eliminate pressure on the ulnar nerve.
3) Wear gloves with ulnar protection built into the padding. Pearl Izumi or Bontrager are good and easy to find.
4) Move your hands around frequently. There are at least 5 different good hand positions on drop bars. When I ride my rollers, I move my hand position every 5 minutes by the clock. Not a bad idea on the road, either.

Chesterton

I had an idea about this - earlier this year I rotated my bars up slightly, so that the "ramps" would be parallel to the ground rather than sloping down to the brakes (originally the bars were set up so the drops were parallel to the ground). This is more comfortable since I'm not reaching down to the brakes, but because I didn't move the brake levers and rewrap the bars the "hoods" are angled upward more than they used to be. So when I'm riding on the hoods there's more of a tendency to bend the wrist upward, putting pressure on the ulnar nerve.

I do feel like the strength and coordination are coming back to my hands now (two days later) so that is good. Lots to think about as I plan out my "perfect" bike this winter...

europa

I'm familiar with moving your saddle back, but where does adjusting the height come into it? I've always adjusted the height to fit with my knee bend and, of course, as the saddle goes backwards, you need to bring it down to compensate... or is this what you meant?

Carbonfiberboy 

Yes, exactly. Moving the saddle back moves it further from the pedals, so you'll have to measure with your leg to see if it needs to come down a hair.

skiffrun

Just to "pile on":

• too much weight on your hands, adjust accordingly (and that could be a plethora of adjustments),
• not enough wrap on the bars,
• perhaps not among the better choices of bars (I like shallow-drop with flat, rather than round profile for the bar of the bar on either side of the stem),
• adjust your hand position(s) frequently,
• your hands should loosely wrap around the bars, hoods, whatever -- not be gripping as if your life depended on it.
• Mmmn, that's all I can recall to type.

Also, if you are in / from Buffalo, does that mean you did a Central/Western NY Region brevet? (That seems most likely since the Saratoga Region only had brevets in March and April this year.)


So, assuming Central/Western Region, you might contact the RBA, Pete Dusel, and try to join him on his next Permanent or Brevet ride. I can't claim to know Pete well, but I have met him (during a 1200 a few years ago) and exchanged a few emails with him and he is a reasonable person and based on your finish time, Pete is likely to ride at a pace similar to yours. A reasonable place to get some advice from an experienced rando, including the RBA, is while riding together -- wait for a low traffic road and ask. If you can do that, Pete may be willing to discuss your bike and suggest alternatives. And he or whomever would actually be able to see you while riding whereas none of us on BikeForums can see you in action.


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I'm always disappointed when I hear that a route includes significant distance on busy roads.

Chesterton

Yes, this was one of Pete's 200K brevets. He's a nice guy; we spent some time chatting at his house after the ride. Not too much about the hand issue, but maybe I'll email him and ask his advice.

Regarding the busy roads - this particular brevet was designed to be rideable in all seasons including winter (for those R-12 seekers I imagine), so I suppose it spends more time on somewhat busier (and better maintained) roads than a more scenic and hilly route would. It appealed to me because a "mild-mannered" 200K sounded like a good idea for a first brevet, and it was. Next time I will do one of the more scenic and hilly 200K routes.

79pmooney

I was running into hand numbness this summer on my Peter Mooney after I make major changes to get it ready to ride Cycle Oregon fix gear. Wide, fairly deep track handlebars and V-brake levers. I did a quick first setup knowing it would take some miles to get it dialed in. Real nunbness, especially in my right hand. Measured the levers carefully and found the right was sitting higher than the left. Moved it down, when both a touch. Rode again. Less numbness but still some. Also I was noticing I was getting it riding the drops. So I rotated the bars down. Almost there. Rotated them a little more. Now the flats of the drops are horizontal and the brake levers past horizontal. I can ride all day with no issues at all. It's now a radical setup, looking like it came right out of the 1950s. But riders of 70 to 107 are causing no issues except when I inch my hands up the curve of the drops.

Something you might try as an experiment: ride with different rotations of you handlebar and brake levers. First place a yardstick on the flat of the drops and mark where it hits the seatstay with a piece of tape. Loosen the stem and rotate. (Based on my experience, I'd rotate down first.) Ride. Notice if the numbness is better or worse. Rotate again, either more or tin the other direction based on the results. Note whether the numbness is happening more on the hoods or in the drops if you can and note the rotation of your wrist. My wrists want to be thumb forward (the opposite of a hitch hiker).

The rotation test has the advantage that it is really easy to do and undo. You may well find that different rotations suit your hands on the drops than on the hoods. Good info. I would set the bars for the drops, untape the HBs to the levers, move the levers to the good position you found previously and re-tape. (With new setups, I buy cloth handlebar tape and tape from the ends of the handlebars. That way, you only need to un-tape to the levers, move them and re-wrap. The cloth tape can do many re-wraps on its adhesive. With a brand new setup, I tape the cable housings in place with electrical tape and ride the bike with bare bars. Makes on the road adjustments easy.

Sunday is the Portland Harvest Century. I will ride the 20 miles there, the 100 miles, then at least 8 miles after. (The MAX rail line runs from close to the finish to 4 miles from my house.) 128 miles means riding twice my age on a fix gear. Figure if I can do that, I ought to live a while longer. With no hand issues, even better.

Ben

79pmooney

I have ridden with real weight on my hands for most of a half century. It is the only way for me got get both comfortable for my torso and breathing and also be aero enough to be able to get this long skinny body upwind. For me, comfortable hands isn't about taking weight off them but making the contact points and wrist position "right". Much like getting feet comfortable is all about the right shoes, not sitting on the couch.

With age, I now double wrap my bars. (I'm 64.) In a few years, I might have to do more.

Yes, adjusting hand positions often is advice from my veteran clubmates/racers many years ago.

I have yet to own the new "ergo" handlebars. The old TTTs with the bend I call the "V" bend work for me well. Many Japanese models roughly follow that bend. (Where looking from the side, the tops as they come down to the brakes and the bottoms would form a "V" on its side if they continued forward and met, vs the "U" shape common to most of the classic Cinelli bars where the tops and bottoms run almost parallel.) Finding the right bars is important, not far behind the right seat, and probably just as individual.

I take issue with the relaxed grip. Those same advisors made it very clear that we were to keep a firm grip on our bars. Not a death grip, but firm enough that an unseen rock or pothole wouldn't knock our hands off. Loose, relaxed wrists and arms so when the rider beside us bumps us, it isn't a big deal. I hear far, far more stories of riders crashing loosing their grip in recent decades than I used to hear. Yes, in part that is because bikes now don't have the "seatbelts" we all had (and that we cursed). The exposed brake housing from the tops of the levers. Those saved all of us more than once by rudely catching the crotch of our thumbs. Now, no seatbelts. You have to have a grip firm enough on the hood to stay on when you hit something. (If you want to go easy on the grip, stay in the drops!)

Their reasoning on the firm grip? Crashes in races take out other riders. As the cause, we lose credibility with other riders as a "solid wheel". They stressed that cooperation was critical to do well in races, so we needed to be considered that "solid wheel". (I got to be allowed to stay in breaks with far higher category riders and achieve results that still blow me away.) Also, crashes, especially the crashes from lost HB grip, are often associated with broken bones. Broken bones = lost training time and poorer condition, hence poorer race results. Yes, a looser grip fosters more energy, blood flow and oxygen to leg muscles as championed by many experts who were still youngsters when I was learning. But the big picture? One modern era Tour de France great lost a key teammate in the months before that race to a hands-came-off-the-bars crash in a paceline when he hit something.

Ben

skiffrun

^

The OP is referring to randonneuring, not racing.
Two completely different things.

No randonneur should be accidentally or "accidentally" bumping into another randonneur during a rando ride.

unterhausen

adjusting stem length and seat setback are the things that helped any problems I had with numb hands.

My first 600k featured a lot of hand numbness problems. I had gone to a shorter stem on that bike, thinking that it would help neck stiffness problems. I don't remember really having similar hand problems on the shorter rides, but on the 600k, it was bad enough that I didn't want to shift.

Paraleisure

Awesome that you completed your first 200K! I did my first brevet on an old 80's racing bike with narrow tires and similar bars/levers. I think you'll find the biggest difference is wider tires at lower pressures to prevent "road buzz" vibration from making it to your hands. I get numbness sometimes in my pinky and ring finger on long brevets due to the slight vibration of my dyno hub at night. But very little during the day as my tires are absorbing most vibration from pavement surface.

The biggest change I made prior to PBP was swapping bars from Cinelli to Grand Bois Maes Parallel, which have a lot more possible hand positions. I also took care to shake out my hands every half hour or so during the ride, and switch hand positions frequently. Finished with no numbness after having quite a bit following 400k and 600k the same year.