BikeWise1

I do a lot of custom bikes for folks that want non-mainstream, i.e. not racing bikes, and many are over 40 and often in their 60's. They have plenty of $$ and want nice stuff. Used to be, I could recommend Shimano shifters ( brifters in BF-ese) because the rather direct shift cable routing offered very low shift effort which is important, especially to older women who have little hand strength. But now, since Shimano has bowed to fashion and made their levers so that the cable routing is tortured, the shift effort is much higher. We actually measured it with pressure sensing pads and discovered it takes nearly twice as much force to shift.

So just go Campy or Sram, you might say, but neither of them offer a triple...and shift effort really isn't any better with either of them.

Shimano told me they expected it to be that way, and so mandate the use of their proprietary cables and housing....which I must say does not seem to help in any meaningful way.

I guess we'll be hoarding 5500 and 6600 levers for some of our customers. Oh how I hate fashion over form.

patentcad

7900 and 6700 have stiffer action than the old DA 7800.

It's fine.

operator

This is normal.

Dura ace will be even 'harder' to shift than ultegra fronts because it uses less sweep. Don't sell new 10 speed shimano for people with weak hands. Or if you do, at the very least use an aftermarket cable kit like Yokozuna to drastically reduce friction in the entire system.

The spec'ed OEM 7900 cableset is 'adequate', friction wise. You will get much better performance and the least amount of shift force with aftermarket cable kits. The only 'proprietary' thing about their cable kits is,

1) Aluminum ferrules for all housing termniation except for the lonesome one on the rear derailleur loop (which is too short for about 99% of the bikes out there)
2) Derailleur cables with PTFE coating with less friction than the 7800 spec cable (big whoop, lots of people make slicker cables than the stock shimano).

The SP41 housing that is spec'ed in the kit is nothing special. It's the same stuff you can order in shop rolls.

operator

Is there a useless echo in here?

BikeWise1

I agree it's normal, just unnecessary.

And the alternatives are......? Besides hoarding the old stuff and/or selling hand strengthening devices for casual cyclists, and selling them more stuff to "fix" the new stuff they just bought....

The whole thing is so stupid. My 7800 bike can be shifted with 1 finger. My 7900 bike, not as much. Oh well, at least the new stuff is "better". Except that it isn't.

All this just to say, I could always point to Shimano as the company who refused to compromise shift ease and function to the fashion of "oooh, neato! Where are the cables? Ahhhh, they're HIDDEN!

In the early-to-mid 80's Campy was the macho choice because everything about the way it worked felt heavy. The brakes took a lot of force, and the shifting was "deliberate".

Shimano's pitch was that all that force was unnecessary and set about building bike parts that were easy to use. I remember how magical the first "Light Action" brakes seemed. All this power and you didn't have to be able to tear a phone book in half to use it.

Now it's "we know it's harder to use and service, but gee it sure looks neat".

patentcad

It's as if they built this crap specifically for the 41. That's uncanny.

Psimet2001 

As mentioned Yokozuna cables - I use them often with SRAM setups but many other shop rats have recommended them for cleaning up 11 speed for campy and to reduce the friction in the new shimano systems.

BW - you're getting to where I have gotten. While I have much less vested in them and find that other shops tend to want to hold on to Shimano longer, but Shimano not only missed the boat this time around they lost track of the destination. Until something changes I have made the leap for good.....

......until I put my 7800 on to my cross bike this season that is...

MKahrl

Back in the 80's the U.S. manager of a major Japanese bike manufacturer didn't like the new rapid fire shifters design for mountain bikes and he spec'd last year's top mount thumbshifters for all MTB's. Shimano wasn't happy and the bike magazines were aghast and panned the bikes for that reason alone. It only takes questioning one new improvement and you've bought yourself permanent membership to Retro Grouches of North America.

Seeing as how nearly half the participants in events like the Tour of the Ohio River Valley are 50 or older; Shimano might want to take a belated notice of this shifting demographic.

intence

Tiagra? Perhaps if/when Tiagra goes 10-speed it might be similar to the older system without the hidden cables? Just a guess, but that would be an option.

xizangstan

I don't know about your road bike shifters, but I just bought a pair of new Shimano XTR Rapid Fires three months ago for my mountain bike. Very happy with them. Now I'm keeping a closer eye on chain maintenance.

shuffles

BikeWise1

We used to carry Bridgestone! I loved those bikes, top mount (w/friction option!) shifters and all. And the rags screamed LUDDITE! And then B'stone went away. :-(

Absolutely. If Shimano went on rides like this, they might see that the resurgence of cycling with the 50+ crowd is easy money. But they want bikes that aren't a chore to use.

BikeWise1

Yep.....that's where we're headed. Now that they've made the cheaper stuff hard to use, they provide the "solution".

Oh, and the ATB stuff is still decent to use-the cables come straight outa the shifters like the road stuff used to....

cooleric1234

No need to use a triple with SRAM Apex, or the long cage Rival. It has a lower gear at the end than most triples if I understand right.

Nachoman

Just out of curiosity, if you didn't route the 7900 cables under the bar tape, and just left them exposed, like 7800 cables, wouldn't that solve all the shifting problems?

aggro_jo

Bingo. Triples are dead. With SRAMS ratios all it takes is a compact double up front and a mid cage der. out back.

BikeWise1

Unfortunately no. It is the shift cable routing within the shifter in order to make the cables go under the tape that is the culprit.

I do think triples are largely dead, though. About bloody time, too!

Psimet2001 

Haha

crhilton

It doesn't get easier to shift than Di2, and they have $$$ you said.

I do believe Campy does offer triples, and SRAM has the Apex stuff which gives you similar gearing. But SRAM requires more force IMO. Don't know about Campy. As I remember Campy does some spring stuff that makes downshifting require more force, maybe it helps with upshifting? Or maybe it just makes a more positive feel? Don't use campy, don't know.

BarracksSi

I hope this makes my 7800 look better and better in case I decide to sell it.

crhilton

It's not Campy. Don't count on too many retro grouches.

BarracksSi

Awwww.....

grwoolf

I've got a bike with 5600 and one with 6700. There is certainly more effort required for the 6700. I recently replaced cables and I tested the 6700 with the cables loose (not under tape prior to wrapping), and it was just as hard. I think it's more about the place the cables come out of the shifters than the actual routing. I don't think there is an option for a direct pull out the side.

Psimet2001 

Even with that in mind there are a lot of riders using older shimano groups that seem to pay Ooodles of green in order to keep them running with OE parts. My 600 tri-color 8spd group - levers were still going for something like $150-$200 5 years ago. On the edge of a big change like 7900, being considered one of the best groups ever made by Shimano (7800) and compatible with all other groups made by Shimano except for the new 7900 and old 8spd DA....you gotta know it will demand a nice price as time rolls on.

dtrain

I've noticed 9-speed 105 through Dura Ace stuff going for quite a bit recently on ebay. I've been hoarding a pair of black 5500 STIs (NIB)...but maybe it's time to think about listing them. They serve as a back-up for both my bikes (which are 9-speed). But if I really did have a problem with a current shifter, I'd probably use it as an excuse to upgrade anyway.