bulldog1935

yes, and people bicycle without helmets and hold up the fact they've survived thus far.
just the wrong head injury at 12 mph will kill you

there is a memorial on one of our greenways where a police officer hit a tree

answer to the valve stem click is a pair of o-rings

Last ride 76 

No one is suggesting these wheels be used for CYCLO-CROSS. That is a specialty purpose, where tape is generally not recommended. The extremely low PSI coupled with wide tires used in cyclo-cross changes the equation substantially. -

I doubt using both actually increases adhesion. It just puts even more flexible sticky stuff between the tire and metal rim, to adding rolling resistance and possibly allowing the tire to move around more under certain conditions. I would be very interested to find out what either tape or glue manufacturers would say about the practice. Use one or the other, according to directions, and seat properly.

After riding a few km , that bump flattens out, in my experience. I would certainly not grind the rim to accommodate it.

Beautiful stuff Randy.
Best regards, Eric

pastorbobnlnh 

Bulldog, thanks for joining the forum and contributing to the great C&V discussions. We always enjoy a new contributor and the insights he/she can bring to our quest for helpful and informative knowledge. However, being snarky (i.e. "if you want to replace glue with tape, knock your lights out"), especially twice in the same thread, is not our style.

I asked a question and others were also curious about your reference to "tape and glue". We are hoping you might explain why you take this approach, i.e. taught this by Obi Wan Kan obi bike mechanic, real life experience, revelation from the bike spirit, etc.

So again, I ask for a real explanation as to why you take this approach? I truly am curious about why YOU glue and tape road tubular tires. Since the discussion in the thread is about road tubular tires on C&V bikes and not about cyclocross tires, track racing, the professional peloton, or even about amateur road races, let me encourage you to stay on topic.

You have our attention. We are curious to hear what you have to say. We don't need another snarky comment. Thanks for understanding and embracing the kind and encouraging tone of this sub forum!

bulldog1935

you're welcome, but it's not snark, and I didn't ask for this discussion - I was called out by several, and assumed your call out was not snark, either
I may have learned differently

they measured roll-off forces which should address doubt

I've been well over 40 mph on my tubular tires and I'm going to stick with this

I was followed by a p/u truck for over 4 mi of twisty descent this day because I was exceeding the speed limit for that distance
(he passed me when I was climbing the next creek divide)


the bell, btw stopped a charging buck in his path, which was also going to be my path (@ 40mph)

I'm not going to give up any safe edge for convenience or weight
God bless.

ps - a buddy laughed at me on the trail one day for ringing my bell at a squirrel. Squirrels are the most dangerous animals on the road, because they change their mind and direction 5 times, can't see your spokes and try to run through your front wheel.

Last ride 76 

No one is suggesting these wheels be used for CYCLO-CROSS. That is a specialty purpose, where tape is generally not recommended. The extremely low PSI coupled with wide tires used in cyclo-cross changes the equation substantially. -

I doubt using both actually increases adhesion. It just puts even more flexible sticky stuff between the tire and metal rim, to adding rolling resistance on the road and possibly allowing the tire to move around more under certain conditions (ie. long hot descents, where rims can heat substantially). I would be very interested to find out what either tape or glue manufacturers would say about the practice. Use one or the other, according to directions, and seat properly.

After riding a few km , that bump flattens out, in my experience. I would certainly not grind the rim to accommodate it.



Beautiful stuff Randy.
Best regards, Eric

PS. Having now read the 2 how-to links, I will say that perhaps in cyclo-cross this helps, although I am still sceptical. And Zinn specifies "Belgian tape" described as specifically designed for 'cross. Otherwise this strikes me as "an old wives tale" type of practice. Some old wives tales have a sound basis for them. Some do not. One thing about 'cross, rim temperatures are MUCH LOWER, and maybe the additional glue bedding MIGHT reduce the possibility imperfect adhesion (for whatever reason). In hot or warm temperatures the extra glop could even have the opposite effect...

bulldog1935

knock your lights out very simply means do it your way

rootboy 

I always thought it was "knock yourself out"

...but I'm no expert.

bulldog1935

one of those quotes from an old friend that sticks with you, certainly colloquial

himespau 

Heck, if you're going to work with two different adhesives, for that much work, might as well just switch to clinchers.

Oh and Randy, I hear you on missing the funny feeling you get from using the whole glue pot.

bulldog1935

The glue absorbed by the fabric casing makes the fabric casing tougher - it becomes a composite.
It's also stuck better at the edge of the rim, where roll-off begins, and forms a stress-riser without glue.
As I said earlier, tape simplifies rolling on a glued tire.
The only work is stripping the rim for the next tire, but tape also makes this process easier


(you might notice here seating the tire moves the glue to where you really need it)
V.

there was an old Rally on this donated rim - I rode the thing, once

busdriver1959

I've been riding tubulars since 1976. I've never ever stripped the old glue from the rim. I don't see how it could hurt adhesion and I believe it provides a nice bed for the new glue. Other than to be fussy about it, why would you want to get rid of the old glue?

bulldog1935

you get rid of dirt, pieces of fabric and old tape, but using solvent, you never quite get rid of the old mastic, as much as spread it out fresh (and clean)

I work with an electron microscope, and keep the spent lint-free cloths from the lab for this (and certainly other uses).

bulldog1935

I keep getting called out and do my best to answer - I even tried avoiding it, so as not to change the thread topic
glue is better than tape, and glue + tape has advantages over both, and there is no trouble to be a disadvantage

if you haven't tried it, it's really cool when you roll the tire to final position and pull the protective film that seats the tire.

(and if you count the number of "I's in you post, it kind of disagrees with your thesis)

busdriver1959

Bulldog- I really don't think you're being called out. Your point of view on using glue and tape is new to most of us and simply generates questions.
It's just discussion. I asked about stripping the glue because I've heard of it being done but I've never figured out why. This seemed like a good time to ask along with giving my view of things.

rootboy 

You got the somewhat tongue-in-cheek point then.

One can only state what one has experience in. Or an opinion on. There's facts. And there's opinions.
They rarely coincide, I've found. And they're antithetical to one another of course.
What is an issue, for me at least, on this forum, is when opinions are posited as facts.
There are very few hard and fast facts in this world of vintage bicycles. But some.

And when declarations are made as if cast in stone, on something that is clearly open to subjectivity,
and then backed up by dropping the "old wise man" card, such as "I've been doing this for over forty years.",
just as an example, it comes off, to me, as unseemly and as if the person is trying to prove his credentials and authority on the subject. I've been guilty of doing it. Which is usually a mistake on my part as I am, truly, not an expert.


Maybe you are. I don't know. You seem like a very knowledgable guy. Yet, there are many guys here who have been riding and messing with "racing" bicycles since the 60's or seventies. Some of them share their knowledge generously, but don't feel the need to bludgeon others over the head with it by repeatedly stating opinions as facts simply because it is something learned from long experience. Which can be valuable, for sure, depending on how it is presented.

But there can be a lot of ego and one-upsmanship infused into it sometimes. And I'm not just talking about you personally here. It happens on this forum. But not as much, thankfully, as on some other boards.

We all want to show our prowess and our knowledge sometimes, gained over years of experience. Much of it was hard won. I believe it's just a matter of how it is put forth as to how well it is received.

Which reminds me ... Moses and I were riding along the other day , and I dropped him like a bad habit as he was using tape and I was on glue....but that's another story.

bulldog1935

I couldn't find the smilies - there they are

they don't do the cool one here - I like the sunglasses B)

again guys, I was trying to dodge it to not derail the thread, but I like the way it works and feel confident with it - especially leaning hard with 80 psi in my P-R tubie and my hair on fire. Honestly, I was surprised no one ponied up to say they do the same, because I know others do.

give Moses a break, he's almost as old as we are
I'm glad there's room for everybody's points of view and experience on any topic, but usually good to not make them about others.
Regards

ps, most often carry a spare when I'm on the tubulars, and it, too, is glued - one last glue application from a tube (actually the solvent) will soften the already applied glue to make it fresh. Though I've never had a roadside bad enough that I couldn't solve it with Stan's, and Stan's repairs have always lasted me as long as the tire tread.
That's another thing about a Rally - you can't remove the valve core to make it easy to use Stan's.

DiabloScott

Well this thread has derailled quite a bit.

1. I glue because gluing is an art and I enjoy being good at it and doing it makes me feel vintage. When I have to take off one of my own tires I'm always satisfied at how hard it is to remove - I'll put my glue job up against anybody's tape job in the safety department.



2. The only time I take off old glue is if I got some used rims from someone else. Once I think it was tape residue and really hard to get off - usually a wire wheel on my drill handles it nicely.



3. I can't speak to lumpy tires, because I only buy the good stuff.

randyjawa 

But, if it did break, you still have the suspenders. That is point bulldog1935 is making, I believe. And I see his, or her, point. Glue will, likely improve adhesion unless the glue reacts poorly with the adhesive on the tape. And the tape makes it easier to install the tire, or so it sounds.

As I said, I agree but I will take a chance with my lights, and hope that it does not darken my day, one day. Anyway...

My Torpado is ready for tire tape and test riding...

bulldog1935

thanks for the photos - it's really fine.

cyclotoine

Do you put stans in from the get go or only after you get a puncture? How much do you typically use in a tubular?

Ed.

Nothing like an old Torpado photo to set my heart a-flutter


I don't claim to be any sort of expert. My sew-up history goes back to only 1967, that's almost 50 years. (Of course that's 350 dog-years...) Anyway, I learned about sew-ups from my Father, who was riding them pre WWII.





I dunno, can we add his [then] 30 years experience to my 50 years? Does experience add up that way? It probably adds up in some complicated mathematical way using Scientific notation. Then, of course, there was our parallel years of experience... Hopefully Jim Muller can enlighten us.


Speaking of Jim, it's good to see Pastor Bob - I was getting ready to harass you in a personal manner as you seemed to be missing. Well, that's settled.


Now, getting back to the second part of this thread, I've never, ever used, or even contemplated the use, of rim tape. If rim tape had any positive attributes I know my Father would have told me. That he was never, ever, heard to even mutter "rim tape", in conjunction with "sew-ups" tells me all I need to know. (Yes, with regard to clinchers, he pointed out the importance of rim tape, but he referred to them as 'rim strip', not tape. And that further reinforces what had to be his total and complete disregard of rim tape.


That's my story and I'm sticking with it!

Ed.

Yukon! Crazy! My Father was there circa 1942-3. Carcross, Whitehorse, Dawson, etc, etc.





I thought I had a photo of Five-Finger Rapids on PhotoBucket...

Salamandrine 

Getting back to the OP, I'd have to say yes, it's related to the cheap tire. I trained on cheap sew ups for years, but have never seen one seat that poorly. Tape is too newfangled for me, but with glue I like to see a nice even squeez-out of tiny beads all the way around, including by the stem.

Since several people with experience using these tires report that they will settle down after being ridden a bit, it would be sensible to give it some time. Do be careful not to take corners too fast until it is fully seated though. If it doesn't seat properly after riding around a while, I would get a new tire.

Salamandrine 

BTW, is it the valve stem that is hanging up? or is it a bulge in the casing around the valve stem base? I'd think enlarging the hole a mm or so in the case of the former would be ok. In the case of the latter: making it much bigger to try to fit the bulging base would be not a good idea.

squirtdad

Bulldog... I agree that people are not "calling you out" but are asking for details as to why you use tape and glue.

The reason for the curiosity is that most have never seen that recommendation previously. Personally I have followed tubie discussions for years before I bit the bullet last year and have never ever seen glue and tape suggested as an option in the C&V forums.