Maybe in this endless grass in wind...
08-07-23, 08:04 AM
#26
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Both "Catch-22" and "Zen..." are very different reads on the second go.
The first one is a lot bleaker when you see that the comedy is a coping mechanism and not a farce and all the cruelties hit harder and the comedy becomes sad. People my age were primed by MASH the sitcom and reruns of old Hogan's Heroes and Black Sheep Squadron, and it takes a bit to break out of that mindset. MASH the stage play and movie are much more like Catch-22. No one told me there were lyrics to the theme...
The second one appeals to engineer types in the first half. But if that's what you came for, it doesn't really resolve in a way that it makes you hope for because it's not really about that.
I believe that's intentional.
The first one is a lot bleaker when you see that the comedy is a coping mechanism and not a farce and all the cruelties hit harder and the comedy becomes sad. People my age were primed by MASH the sitcom and reruns of old Hogan's Heroes and Black Sheep Squadron, and it takes a bit to break out of that mindset. MASH the stage play and movie are much more like Catch-22. No one told me there were lyrics to the theme...
The second one appeals to engineer types in the first half. But if that's what you came for, it doesn't really resolve in a way that it makes you hope for because it's not really about that.
I believe that's intentional.
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Last edited by Darth Lefty; 08-07-23 at 08:14 AM.
08-07-23, 08:17 AM
#27
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it wasn't a horrible book, but one can avoid the book, if your college English professor tells you why you should read it. meaning. "OK, thanks now I know what I should get out of it" boom, done!
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08-07-23, 04:09 PM
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@bikelif3
Pirsig's book is problematic as a work of philosophy and as a work of literature, although these may be overlooked somewhat as it is a work of fiction and as such, many shortcomings can be attributed to its characters, including the narrator.
For instance. Here is the passage from the book with more of a pre-amble:
“In my mind, when I look at these fields, I say to her, “See?…See?” and I think she does. I hope later she will see and feel a thing about these prairies I have given up talking to others about; a thing that exists here because everything else does not and can be noticed because other things are absent. She seems so depressed sometimes by the monotony and boredom of her city life, I thought maybe in this endless grass and wind she would see a thing that sometimes comes when monotony and boredom are accepted. It’s here, but I have no names for it.”
Also in the book:
"Zen has something to say about boredom. Its main practice of “just sitting” has got to be the world’s most boring activity… You don’t do anything much: not move, not think, not care. What could be more boring? Yet in the very center of this boredom is the very thing Zen Buddhism seeks to teach. What is it? What is it at the very center of boredom that you’re not seeing?"
I believe the first passage refers to the narrator's ex-wife, who tired of endless motorcycle touring and left him, and also because of the narrator's increasingly anti-social behavior. As he becomes manically obsessed with the impossible goals of relating mechanics to philosophy, and zen Buddhism to Western Philosophy, his interpersonal relationships wither. In the above passage he laments that his ex-wife doesn't share his preferred style of monotony and boredom, which he mistakenly believes akin to zen Buddhist meditation. He feels that if she were exposed to more and more of it, at some point, she'd possibly find enlightenment...and possibly help him attain it too.
One big problem is that the book's narrator, seems to relate the monotony of sitting on a motorcycle while riding through monotonous scenery as an activity akin to zen Buddhist meditation...but it is not. Even monotonous riding "in the zone" occupies parts of the brain, conscious or unconscious with balance, navigation, reading the road and adapting to it (like curves or obstacles) and more. And if one were to encounter traffic, it would force one even further away from pure meditation. Motorcycle touring is an activity and as such fall short of merely sitting still and meditating.
As proof, while he rides, the narrator conducts these philosophical explorations (or 'chautauquas' as he calls them), rather than becoming 'one with everything'. The narrator is really carrying out a Platonic dialogue and even refers to himself as 'Phaedrus'.
I would say, then, that riding a bike would propel one even further from zen Buddhist meditation since in involves more physical activity, and more rigorous activity than riding a motorcycle.
I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" in high school, again in college, and again in my early thirties. Being younger I assumed those older than I had life sorted out, and that when I was older and wiser I would understand the book better. I recently re-read the book two years ago at age 60 and realized there were no answers in there for me, and the narrator reminded me of my own painfully awkward searches for meaning earlier in my life. Furthermore, as a former English Lit major and as professional writer for almost 40 years (advertising), Pirsig's book is unfocused, misguided and rambling; but again, this can be a deliberate choice and attributed to its narrator.
Still, it gets one thinking...which is very Western Philosophy-like, and very not very zen Buddhism-like.
I understand your attraction to the quote you picked, and how it might resonate with you, but the book has too much baggage for me.
Pirsig's book is problematic as a work of philosophy and as a work of literature, although these may be overlooked somewhat as it is a work of fiction and as such, many shortcomings can be attributed to its characters, including the narrator.
For instance. Here is the passage from the book with more of a pre-amble:
“In my mind, when I look at these fields, I say to her, “See?…See?” and I think she does. I hope later she will see and feel a thing about these prairies I have given up talking to others about; a thing that exists here because everything else does not and can be noticed because other things are absent. She seems so depressed sometimes by the monotony and boredom of her city life, I thought maybe in this endless grass and wind she would see a thing that sometimes comes when monotony and boredom are accepted. It’s here, but I have no names for it.”
Also in the book:
"Zen has something to say about boredom. Its main practice of “just sitting” has got to be the world’s most boring activity… You don’t do anything much: not move, not think, not care. What could be more boring? Yet in the very center of this boredom is the very thing Zen Buddhism seeks to teach. What is it? What is it at the very center of boredom that you’re not seeing?"
I believe the first passage refers to the narrator's ex-wife, who tired of endless motorcycle touring and left him, and also because of the narrator's increasingly anti-social behavior. As he becomes manically obsessed with the impossible goals of relating mechanics to philosophy, and zen Buddhism to Western Philosophy, his interpersonal relationships wither. In the above passage he laments that his ex-wife doesn't share his preferred style of monotony and boredom, which he mistakenly believes akin to zen Buddhist meditation. He feels that if she were exposed to more and more of it, at some point, she'd possibly find enlightenment...and possibly help him attain it too.
One big problem is that the book's narrator, seems to relate the monotony of sitting on a motorcycle while riding through monotonous scenery as an activity akin to zen Buddhist meditation...but it is not. Even monotonous riding "in the zone" occupies parts of the brain, conscious or unconscious with balance, navigation, reading the road and adapting to it (like curves or obstacles) and more. And if one were to encounter traffic, it would force one even further away from pure meditation. Motorcycle touring is an activity and as such fall short of merely sitting still and meditating.
As proof, while he rides, the narrator conducts these philosophical explorations (or 'chautauquas' as he calls them), rather than becoming 'one with everything'. The narrator is really carrying out a Platonic dialogue and even refers to himself as 'Phaedrus'.
I would say, then, that riding a bike would propel one even further from zen Buddhist meditation since in involves more physical activity, and more rigorous activity than riding a motorcycle.
I read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" in high school, again in college, and again in my early thirties. Being younger I assumed those older than I had life sorted out, and that when I was older and wiser I would understand the book better. I recently re-read the book two years ago at age 60 and realized there were no answers in there for me, and the narrator reminded me of my own painfully awkward searches for meaning earlier in my life. Furthermore, as a former English Lit major and as professional writer for almost 40 years (advertising), Pirsig's book is unfocused, misguided and rambling; but again, this can be a deliberate choice and attributed to its narrator.
Still, it gets one thinking...which is very Western Philosophy-like, and very not very zen Buddhism-like.
I understand your attraction to the quote you picked, and how it might resonate with you, but the book has too much baggage for me.
08-07-23, 07:45 PM
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You know what's funny .... this post was not about a book ......
08-13-23, 03:45 PM
#31
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You know what's even funnier? It actually WAS about a book.
“We take a handful of sand from the endless landscape of awareness around us and call that handful of sand the world.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
“We take a handful of sand from the endless landscape of awareness around us and call that handful of sand the world.”
― Robert M. Pirsig, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance
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08-13-23, 03:52 PM
#32
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Actually it was about the boredom of long bike rides possibly revealing something which could not be noticed any other way.
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08-13-23, 04:22 PM
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“We take a handful of sand from the endless landscape of awareness around us and call that handful of sand the world.”
When I take a handful of sand I watch it disappear though my fingers. And those are the days of our lives. Rinpoche RSbob.
When I take a handful of sand I watch it disappear though my fingers. And those are the days of our lives. Rinpoche RSbob.
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08-13-23, 04:29 PM
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Zen and the Art of Internet Garbage-Posting .... Some day everything is going to be smooth like a rhapsody, when I write masterpiece.....
08-13-23, 06:52 PM
#35
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08-13-23, 07:04 PM
#36
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Like the sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives.
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08-13-23, 07:06 PM
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08-13-23, 07:15 PM
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Go make noise on other threads that you don't despise. Plenty of room for us to not butt heads....
08-13-23, 09:56 PM
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08-13-23, 10:15 PM
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Dude ... maybe try some of the Zen part of the book .....
Also ..... Victim much? "IMPOSING" myself? I am posting on a public message board. And how would you know what a "thread " wants? Are you assuming this "thread" is a sentient being with its own wants and desires?
Seems to me you just don't like it when people do not agree with you. I notice you didn't reply to any of my earlier posts in this thread .... what, did the thread "want" me then?
Also ..... Victim much? "IMPOSING" myself? I am posting on a public message board. And how would you know what a "thread " wants? Are you assuming this "thread" is a sentient being with its own wants and desires?
Seems to me you just don't like it when people do not agree with you. I notice you didn't reply to any of my earlier posts in this thread .... what, did the thread "want" me then?
08-13-23, 10:20 PM
#42
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I can appreciate your philosophical leanings and very much agree with the majority of their tenants. I have taken graduate level religious studies and did a deep dive into Buddhism, but I really don’t see its place being injected into a bicycle forum, just like Christianity, Judaeaism, or any other religious or philosophical bent. You are more than welcome to your beliefs or non-beliefs but a bicycle forum is not the best avenue. That is why you are getting blowback. As is said in public speaking and corporate meetings, “know you audience”. Peace
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08-13-23, 10:58 PM
#43
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I strongly disagree ... the book actually says it is not accurate about Buddhism or motorcycle maintenance ..... I think what happened here is some folks have insufficient senses of humor, and cannot handle different points of view ..... but there has not been any imposition or even serious discussion of faith or practice, and no disagreement over any faith or practice. Mostly people talked about whether or not they liked certain books.
I am sort of glad people didn't start debating faith here ... we'd end up getting sent to Bike Forum Hades (the Politics and Religion page, the only place on BF worse than A&S.
)
I am sort of glad people didn't start debating faith here ... we'd end up getting sent to Bike Forum Hades (the Politics and Religion page, the only place on BF worse than A&S.
)
08-13-23, 11:53 PM
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Endless grass helps accept monotony and boredom.
I have no thought or names.
She would see a thing that sometimes come.
A full charge.
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No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
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08-14-23, 11:04 AM
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Any even remotely related cycling content is gone. This is foo material if anyone wants to start a thread there. Thread closed
