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A word about VO headsets

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A word about VO headsets

Old 05-19-19, 11:55 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...I keep coming back to this thread. I don't know why.
I keep coming back 'cause I want to see pics of the split races, moot or not.
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Old 05-19-19, 12:02 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Kuromori View Post
Plenty of older non-split alloy cartridge crown races. It's split because it makes installation and removal trivial, and a crown race seat slightly out of spec doesn't really matter, that's it. No special tools, no nonsense. Sometimes I'll split them myself if they don't come that way.
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
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Old 05-19-19, 12:56 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post
VO does not make a sealed bearing french headset pretty easy to verify on their website. I still do not understand why this is being debated when its been established already.
Well, you opened the thread with the notion that VO products are somehow defective. I understand the tone here got a little out of hand, but it would actually be very useful and helpful if we could see the items to evaluate for ourselves, since many of us put our trust in this company’s products. You mentioned that you would not only retrieve your bike, but also the failed races. Could we see those, please?
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Old 05-19-19, 02:39 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
A split crown race seat never touches the balls or rollers, that would be a split crown race, which does not actually exist as a production item.

The split crown race seat is only ever a good idea if the seating area is tapered such that the cup or cartridge bearing itself positively prevents the fit on the steerer from opening up and presenting looseness. In that case, the split in the crown race seat can do no harm as the taper imparts an inward force all the way around the crown race seat, thus preventing any looseness from ever developing between the crown/steerer and the crown race seat.
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Old 05-19-19, 03:03 PM
  #80  
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Got it. I've never installed a split race seat before. Too new for me.
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Old 05-19-19, 03:43 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
...it was one of those off the wall statements we see here from time to time. As stated by @dddd, and suspected by you, you "split" a race for "ease of installation" on any headset that uses either loose or caged bearings at some risk to the longevity of your installation.

Cartridge bearings, OTOH, contain both bearing and races in one handy disposable package. A split "crown race" in that instance serves as a stop and support for that cartridge, and as already stated, is machined in such a way that the bearing cartridge compresses it and holds it in place pretty firmly. It's not really a race, because it never touches a bearing....but it gets the same name because it goes in the same place we're used to putting a race.

But don't pay any attention to me, I'm only here out of curiosity.
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Old 05-19-19, 03:45 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...I keep coming back to this thread. I don't know why.
I keep coming back to find out if the "split" was manufactured into the part (a split ring seat for the bearing) or whether the mechanic broke the darned thing or thought the split was damage but is a design feature.

There is just so much wrong with this thread. It's like staring at a car accident.

You know you shouldn't stare or even look.

You know you should look away.

You just can't.
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Old 05-19-19, 03:46 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
It is not a bearing "race". It is a split ring seat for a sealed bearing.

Last edited by Bad Lag; 05-19-19 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 05-19-19, 03:57 PM
  #84  
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...for the ambitious among you, you can Google up an image search for Velo Orange headsets that shows both the more commonly encountered Gran Cru headset and the French threaded ones. I did it a couple of days ago, out of curiosity.

Veo Orange just rebrands and sells stuff that other people make for them (obviously), so they have sold a lot of different sorts of headsets over the years. It's nice to have access to a (relatively) reasonably priced headset that will fit on a French standard bike. But the stack height is a real problem in a lot of applications.

For a cartridge bearing headset, the other one, the Gran Cru, is not badly priced either. I would guess it's gonna get harder and harder to find 1" headsets of good quality, as demand for them continues to decline because it's an old standard. I was crushed when I found out I couldn't buy the 1" Sronglight ones on Ribble (Wiggle ?) any more.
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Old 05-19-19, 04:01 PM
  #85  
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Velo Orange Threaded Headset, Caged Bearing 1" French

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Old 05-19-19, 04:24 PM
  #86  
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I say Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know's on third.
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Old 05-19-19, 04:35 PM
  #87  
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And No One is at home
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Old 05-19-19, 05:01 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Does this imply that caged bearings are required? It seems to me that a loose bearing would quickly find the split and embed itself, especially if an imperfection has opened up the collar even the slightest.
Cartridge bearings, because the crown race isn't actually a race. I was merely pointing out that they fact that cartridge bearing headset crown races aren't split because the crown races things are delicate, but because it's just a much easier design to deal with all around.
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Old 05-19-19, 05:08 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
A split crown race seat never touches the balls or rollers, that would be a split crown race, which does not actually exist as a production item.

The split crown race seat is only ever a good idea if the seating area is tapered such that the cup or cartridge bearing itself positively prevents the fit on the steerer from opening up and presenting looseness. In that case, the split in the crown race seat can do no harm as the taper imparts an inward force all the way around the crown race seat, thus preventing any looseness from ever developing between the crown/steerer and the crown race seat.
The crown race seat is what the 26.5mm part of the fork is called though, and the conical thing that the bearing sits on will almost always be called a crown race by manufacturers, whether or not it's actually a race. If you had to come up with a technical name for it, it would be something like cartridge bearing crown race seat adapter.
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Old 05-19-19, 06:37 PM
  #90  
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If we can home in on a best name for the "crown race seating ring"(?) I have to say I got the "ring" part from Bad Lag's wording.

And yeah, with a cartridge bearing headset I have also often heard of it being called just a "crown race" in that context.

And we're still itching to see a photo of the broken parts, i.e. the nature of the fracture. It's possible to harden a lower grade or lower purity of steel that then would then have relatively low tensile strength and/or would have weak spots where a fracture could develop.
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Old 05-19-19, 07:52 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by dddd View Post
If we can home in on a best name for the "crown race seating ring"(?) I have to say I got the "ring" part from Bad Lag's wording.
What does Grant Petersen call it?
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Old 05-19-19, 08:15 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
What does Grant Petersen call it?
I heard that if GP stares at a crown race long enough it splits itself.
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Old 05-19-19, 09:17 PM
  #93  
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Does that make him the Lord of the Ring?

groan
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Old 05-19-19, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by clubman View Post
Does that make him the Lord of the Ring?
Not unless there's a picture of it.

-Kurt
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Old 05-20-19, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Which part is breaking? The crown race? It is machined a touch undersize? If it is the crown race, have you (or the shop) checked the fork? Now that you have a headset that works, this is a moot point but if the fork is oversized, this may come up again.

Now, if the part that broke isn't the crown race, forget everything I said.

Edit: Just noticed this is a Motobecane. French. I don't like to bad-mouth bikes based on country origin, but those of us who have worked on French bikes have learned to expect everything when it comes to adherence to standards. I owned two Peugeots and spent a summer assembling Motobecanes and Peugeots.
Since he said NOS Motobecane, I assumed one of the newer Asian models and was going to comment on the French headset remark. I would love to find a NOS Peugeot PX-10E.
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Old 05-20-19, 12:54 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by jethin View Post
For the record don’t think Tange makes a French hs. Feel free flame me if I’m wrong.

Off topic a bit, but I've wondered how important it is to have a very secure/tight crown race. My suspicion is that as long as it’s at least hand tight it’s prob fine if the hs is properly adjusted. See above re: flames.
That is a good point

How about a Stronglight? They must have some French threaded ones? Needle bearings are kind of cool, even if my mechanic says he doesn't like them (though the one below is cartridge bearing)
https://www.amazon.com/Stronglight-C.../dp/B0067KTXYQ
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Old 05-21-19, 05:54 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by SamSpade1941 View Post
I just ran into this problem last night so all was for naught. I am back to square one now.

ETA I am now going to be forced to buy another french headset NOS or just buy a whole different fork that is not french and use one of my other headsets ( I have several Shimano 600 and a couple of XT headsets in my bin) .
@SamSpade1941,
Not sure if this interests you, but just stumbled upon these on eBay:
French Headset
No connection to seller. Calls out 44mm stack height and 27.0 crown race, so might work for you if you can snag a race to fit your fork.
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