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Old 05-18-19, 09:11 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
CA has this proposed bill prize compensation: gender equity

"awards prize compensation, as defined, to competitors in gendered categories, a requirement that the prize compensation be identical between the gendered categories at each participant level."

If it passes it affects sports in CA - Like ToC and many local races.

It might:
-Eliminate all prizes for sport.
-Eliminate one gender's sport
-drive cycling to a different model similar to what I proposed, fondo like or skill differentiation, rather than gender and age.
Seems to me that if a sport can't or won't operate within the confines of that rule, the sport has no business existing.

But besides...prize pools IMO have virtually zero impact on general racing participation. We're talking an astronomically small percentage of racers for whom prize money could ever be a realistic consideration. If the goal is increased racing participation...promoters should just do away with the prize pool, and sink the money into better organized events, more events, better planning, lower entry fees, or perks at the event. I just can't see somebody getting off their couch, or deciding to race a crit on a weekend instead of ride their group ride because of a chance at a $50 cat 5 prize.
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Old 05-18-19, 12:03 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Seems to me that if a sport can't or won't operate within the confines of that rule, the sport has no business existing.
In our life Nike gave a prize compensation of $20K and trip to Sweden to the males winning team - nothing to the males. In that case the field sizes were the same - same fields, and game lengths the same.
The soccer parents are not going to let that happen. Take it to college (adults) and you have different prizes, award, compensation that varies tremendously by sport.
There are many single gender sports competitions. In SoCal the female soccer, volleyball (maybe basketball) outnumber the males by large margins.
Could adult compensation mean sports scholarships? Those are different by sport and gender for any school under NCAA and Title IX. So will CA schools need to adjust Title IX requirements?

Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
But besides...prize pools IMO have virtually zero impact on general racing participation. We're talking an astronomically small percentage of racers for whom prize money could ever be a realistic consideration. If the goal is increased racing participation...promoters should just do away with the prize pool, and sink the money into better organized events, more events, better planning, lower entry fees, or perks at the event. I just can't see somebody getting off their couch, or deciding to race a crit on a weekend instead of ride their group ride because of a chance at a $50 cat 5 prize.
My point was promoters should do fields by skill ranking and this will push things that way. It is not working out so well right now for bike racing. It is working out just fine for Fondos and Running where groups are defined by ability, even if self determined.


I agree with you folks will not be getting off their couch to race because of money. Increasing gender participation in one sport generally means moving them from another. For the younger, the prize money does matter.

Last edited by Doge; 05-18-19 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 05-18-19, 12:12 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
In our life Nike gave a prize compensation of $20K and trip to Sweden to the males winning team - nothing to the males. In that case the field sizes were the same - same fields, and game lengths the same.

The soccer parents are not going to let that happen. Take it to college (adults) and you have different prizes, award, compensation that varies tremendously by sport.


My point was promoters should do fields by skill ranking and this will push things that way. It is not working out so well right now for bike racing. It is working out just fine for Fondos and Running where groups are defined by ability, even if self determined.


I agree with you folks will not be getting off their couch to race because of money. Increasing gender participation in one sport generally means moving them from another. For the younger, the prize money does matter.


There are many single gender sports competitions. In SoCal the female soccer, volleyball (maybe basketball) outnumber the males by large margins.


Could adult compensation mean sports scholarships? Those are different by sport and gender for any school under NCAA and Title IX. So will CA schools need to adjust Title IX requirements?

Or just eliminate sports scholarships and traveling sports teams at the University level. Neither contribute anything whatsoever to higher learning. But that's a different argument.
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Old 05-18-19, 12:18 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Or just eliminate sports scholarships and traveling sports teams at the University level. Neither contribute anything whatsoever to higher learning. But that's a different argument.
Sure - I agree. I don't like sports in college. That might be harder than grouping racing based on skill level.
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Old 05-18-19, 12:22 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Sure - I agree. I don't like sports in college. That might be harder than grouping racing based on skill level.

Oh I just re-read your earlier post about skill based racing. So I assume you mean mixed gender fields then, right? Technically, I believe most races ARE mixed gender. Every race I have been in (which admittedly is a fairly small sample size) has allowed females to sign up for mens races. So really what you are arguing is to simply eliminate womens races, juniors races, and masters. I have a hard time believing killing womens and junior races will help participation. Masters racers would probably be perfectly happy jumping into cat 5 or 4 (or above...). I assume many/most women would just up and leave, and many juniors parents would not let them race against 30 year olds.

OH, and just to add my 2 cents in about the OP's main topic...I think personally I am done (after PSIMETs crit this weekend) with road racing as well, after my very brief and non-illustrious career. It's just too dangerous. I'm 40 with a kid...I don't need to lose a liver to pileup at 27mph in a bike race. I'm not comfortable going around corners in a pack 4 wide, and only part of that is because I'm just not comfortable. A very significant portion of that is because it's just stupid. There's only so much you can control. And that amount drops exponentially as you're surrounded on all sides by cyclists turning and going 25mph+.

I did a series of weekday practice crits this week. Totally uncomfortable in the group, thinking the whole time 'this is stupid this is stupid I should not be doing this I'm dumb.' Got dropped the first race because I kept letting off the gas in corners. The next 2 races I just went straight to the front and pulled the group for 3/4 of the race. Not because of any great desire to work for the field or anything, but because it was safer lol! I'd rather turn myself inside out pulling on the front of a crit than take it easy in the pack and wonder if I'm going to get a derailleur through my trachea.

So anywho...that's why I'm sticking to gravel races and cross from here on out. I don't have a death wish.

Last edited by Abe_Froman; 05-18-19 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 05-18-19, 12:41 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
Oh I just re-read your earlier post about skill based racing. So I assume you mean mixed gender fields then, right? Technically, I believe most races ARE mixed gender. Every race I have been in (which admittedly is a fairly small sample size) has allowed females to sign up for mens races. So really what you are arguing is to simply eliminate womens races. I have a hard time believing this will help participation.
Eliminate fields that are a net loss to the promoter. That is many age based fields and gender ones.

There is significant cost in holding a course open. Announcer, support, officials, police, permits etc. Many age and gender based fields are small.


Maybe protect the <14 class as they have few options but 14 year olds can race with adults. I don't see an issue with a 16 year old cat 2 girl, 30 year old cat 2 women, Cat 3 50 something, 14 year old male 4 male doing the same race. If you were going to really do this (I'm repeating former posts) Do Cat 1-10. Put gear restrictions 52X16 on Cat 9/10, 52X14 on Cat 7/8 Cat 6->3 open and Cat 2-1 based on performance. When you say you are a Cat 6 that applies to any age, gender. If you want to give a prize (really not my concern either) you can still do that.


Well, I believe participation is primarily based on the sport being fun or not and the allure of being a pro... When Lemond was doing good, cycling was bigger. '84 Olympics in LA, racing was bigger. Lance, racing got bigger.

What we do see in mass group things - Fondos and Running seem to be pretty healthy.
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Old 05-18-19, 12:46 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Eliminate fields that are a net loss to the promoter. That is many age based fields and gender ones.

There is significant cost in holding a course open. Announcer, support, officials, police, permits etc. Many age and gender based fields are small.


Maybe protect the <14 class as they have few options but 14 year olds can race with adults. I don't see an issue with a 16 year old cat 2 girl, 30 year old cat 2 women, Cat 3 50 something, 14 year old male 4 male doing the same race. If you were going to really do this (I'm repeating former posts) Do Cat 1-10. Put gear restrictions 52X16 on Cat 9/10, 52X14 on Cat 7/8 Cat 6->3 open and Cat 2-1 based on performance. When you say you are a Cat 6 that applies to any age, gender. If you want to give a prize (really not my concern either) you can still do that.


Well, I believe participation is primarily based on the sport being fun or not and the allure of being a pro... When Lemond was doing good, cycling was bigger. '84 Olympics in LA, racing was bigger. Lance, racing got bigger.

What we do see in mass group things - Fondos and Running seem to be pretty healthy.

I don't think people participate because of the 'allure of being a pro.' Basketball was much bigger in Chicago when Jordan was playing compared to now. I don't think many people played because they had visions of going pro. It's just something to draw peoples attention. Tiger did it with golf (assuming we can classify golf as a 'sport' ).
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Old 05-19-19, 03:04 PM
  #83  
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I was team captain in HS and we played against US Open champ Webb Simpson. Great game. Not sport.

IMO, Iíve played golf at a lot higher level than Iíll likely ever ride a bike. Even though I could hit the damn ball well, I still feel golf is more accessible to well ďgroupedĒ skill level competition than any endurance sport. I say that to meaN you stand a chance to win. Running is super accessible, with zero chance at winning much anything, AG included.

The spread in an AG triathlon is what? DNF all the way to winner with almost nobody sniffing the podium? Also, it seemed easier to me to get your **** together and the stars align for a good day on the golf course than eternally racking up mediocre bike racing results.

Thatís because there are up to 8 or even 10 ďcategoriesĒ per amateur tournament (recreational amateur, not aspiring pro amateur).

Itís still like comparing an apple to Saturn though.

Iím discovering my place in bikes and learning to be more content.

I was good enough in golf to be just good enough to piss yourself off. Imagine eternally being a Cat 1 or 2 thatís one point away.
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Old 05-20-19, 11:47 AM
  #84  
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Don't see any replies from Florida. All I can tell you, the past 5-6yrs, the schedule has really dropped off. 6-7yrs ago, you could count on at least 6-8 good races/events around the Central FL area, Tampa, up to Clermont/Orlando down to Naples...now...lucky to get 2-3 races all year.

It is sad around C Florida now for racing IMHO. The season was so packed, I would make a point to go to the other side of the state to Lauderdale area for a few races a year that would really good. Not anymore. I would do close to 10 races maybe around the state. Lucky to do just a few now a year. I don't know what the deal is, I know the local promoter has tried different things over the past several years...but it isn't like it used to be that is for sure.
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Old 05-21-19, 08:52 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by zigmeister View Post
Don't see any replies from Florida. All I can tell you, the past 5-6yrs, the schedule has really dropped off. 6-7yrs ago, you could count on at least 6-8 good races/events around the Central FL area, Tampa, up to Clermont/Orlando down to Naples...now...lucky to get 2-3 races all year.

It is sad around C Florida now for racing IMHO. The season was so packed, I would make a point to go to the other side of the state to Lauderdale area for a few races a year that would really good. Not anymore. I would do close to 10 races maybe around the state. Lucky to do just a few now a year. I don't know what the deal is, I know the local promoter has tried different things over the past several years...but it isn't like it used to be that is for sure.
Well, Florida is down a promoter with WAM Events, Keri used to organize a couple of races you could bank on annually (Spring Fling, etc) but not anymore. She also had a rough couple of years with some health issues, so it's understandable why she moved on. And it looks like Tim @ Topview is doing more out of state (50% of his events this year are not in Florida).

We've also seen several race sponsors fold up, look what happened with Tampa Twilight a few years ago where the sponsor basically pulled out with less than a month to go before the race, leaving an NRC event kind of high and dry.

Be thankful for Bill Bone, without him you'd only have Tuesday night worlds.
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Old 07-03-19, 04:28 PM
  #86  
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See https://www.bikeforums.net/21009452-post1.html
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Old 07-12-19, 08:42 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post

People hate cyclists. People love cars. People love freedom. People HATE when their roads are closed. I ran a race in the downtown here WHERE I have my shop. It was 4 hours of closure that started at like 2pm. The local Mr. Potter Millionaire was held up trying to get to his private club on Friday for his evening dinner at 4pm (he's old). so he got out of his car and yelled at the 50 yr old woman working the corner telling her that he would make sure there would never be another race in downtown ever again. The town waited until the planning meeting the following year and then decided to tell us, "never in the history of this village had there ever been a single event that has created more complaints. You will not be holding it this year or any other year so long as anyone here has a say about it." - translation the old man told them to crush it and they did - confirmed off the record later.

Because people hate cyclists and love their roads it becomes impossible to find places that will let us hold the races. We have one crit where every year there is a vocal resident who complains to the mayor about how he is "held hostage in his own home". He can actually park his car outside the course (4 houses away) and walk to and from his car as much as he wants all day. Yet he is a prisoner.
A guy in my neighborhood lives in view of the local high school athletic fields. He raises holy hell because he can hear various teams practicing after school. Those are the kinds of NIMBYs that make it difficult to hold any kind of event.
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