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When the break laps the field

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When the break laps the field

Old 05-31-19, 12:28 PM
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Radish_legs
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When the break laps the field

Here in Tolley's video in the Texas state crit champs, the breakaway laps the field. Then Matrix lapped riders in the field go to the front and drive the race (one of their guys was in the break), and split the field. Tolley questions whether this is allowed.

It clearly is allowed by the rules. The only restriction is that you can't fall off the back of the field and help a break. Yet there seems to be mass confusion among riders about this issue still. And also a feeling like even if it's allowed by the rules, teams should not do this. The break has to decide whether to lap the field or not. They don't necessarily have to. And if they don't, then there won't be any break/field chaos.

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Old 05-31-19, 01:53 PM
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Always a fun conversation. Agreed it is fully legal. Outside of whether it should be done? Why in the hell shouldn't it be done? What's the point of having teammates. Don't like it then don't race track or crits.

On the drop back - yes that was illegal forever but IIRC there was a rule change about 2-3 years ago that was worded in such a way that this is now ambiguous. I am sure someone will cite a rule or correct me. Before then it was 100% against the rules to drop off and pace a teammate in a break. You could drop off and join the break but you couldn't pull/set pace. At that time it was also not legit to allow a rider who was lapped to jump back into the pack as it lapped them. That is also now allowed. They can also go to the front and set pace even if they were lapped. That's where the drop back bit gets confusing...

On the track all of this gets even better. I only half know and am wrong a lot.

The easy way to tell is when an old guy is *****ing about something. Usually means it's not against the rules but he doesn't like it because he thinks he should have won but wasn't able to because after doing all that work someone else was able to beat him.....but only because of the help of others. Sour grapes. Get a team, ride harder, or sit on their move as well.
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Old 05-31-19, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Psimet2001 View Post
Always a fun conversation. Agreed it is fully legal. Outside of whether it should be done? Why in the hell shouldn't it be done? What's the point of having teammates. Don't like it then don't race track or crits.

On the drop back - yes that was illegal forever but IIRC there was a rule change about 2-3 years ago that was worded in such a way that this is now ambiguous. I am sure someone will cite a rule or correct me. Before then it was 100% against the rules to drop off and pace a teammate in a break. You could drop off and join the break but you couldn't pull/set pace. At that time it was also not legit to allow a rider who was lapped to jump back into the pack as it lapped them. That is also now allowed. They can also go to the front and set pace even if they were lapped. That's where the drop back bit gets confusing...

On the track all of this gets even better. I only half know and am wrong a lot.

The easy way to tell is when an old guy is *****ing about something. Usually means it's not against the rules but he doesn't like it because he thinks he should have won but wasn't able to because after doing all that work someone else was able to beat him.....but only because of the help of others. Sour grapes. Get a team, ride harder, or sit on their move as well.
thank you sir, I agree completely.
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Old 05-31-19, 07:25 PM
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I always lap up when the opportunity is there. If other people in the break don't, I just attack until we're close enough to bridge. Rifling back through the field is a lot of fun.

But anyway, it cracks me up how few people understand the rules, especially at the 1/2 level where this stuff happens all the time.

Also interesting when the break laps with only a lap or 3 to go and the lap cards skip a number and half the field has no clue what's going on.

Awareness is so important, both of the rules and the current situation. It's a real advantage when you know what's going on and act on it.
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Old 06-01-19, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Also interesting when the break laps with only a lap or 3 to go and the lap cards skip a number and half the field has no clue what's going on.

Awareness is so important, both of the rules and the current situation. It's a real advantage when you know what's going on and act on it.
I LOVE when that happens. If I am announcing I usually point it out at least but I almost feel like I am cheating when I do. After the break is really gone it seems like everyone else is just happy and shuts their brains off. They have no idea what's going on and figure everyone else will do the thinking for them. It's fun to watch.

The track is even more fun to watch when someone who is racing knows the full rules of that particular race and really uses them to their advantage. It almost makes the sport seem like it has some potential to entertain spectators....almost.
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Old 06-02-19, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Radish_legs View Post
...

It clearly is allowed by the rules. The only restriction is that you can't fall off the back of the field and help a break. ...
This year, collegiate nationals.

Small group laps field and is riding in pack. One of those that lapped the field crashes. A teammate that did not lap the field drops back to pull crashed rider back - and succeeds.

Allowed?

Other note: Crashed rider is very liked by all. Nobody cares if it is legal or not and no one protests.

Last edited by Doge; 06-02-19 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 06-02-19, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
This year, collegiate nationals.

Small group laps field and is riding in pack. One of those that lapped the field crashes. A teammate that did not lap the field drops back to pull crashed rider back - and succeeds.

Allowed?
Why did he not just take a free lap?
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Old 06-02-19, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Why did he not just take a free lap?
Within the last 5. No free laps.

Edit Add:
I sometimes wonder (for a second or two) if it is my place as a spectator (and very low level experienced USAC official, just watching) to bring stuff up to officials.
Answer:No

At a local level, no (except one year I provided a video that changed the State Championship). At a National level...still no.
It is about the riders.

At a pro/UCI level, I tend to think it is more about the spectators than the riders. If the officials know what happened and make a judgement, it is all them.
But if they are uninformed about facts and I, like so many spectators have a video - I'll share. Stuff like this is just interesting.

Last edited by Doge; 06-02-19 at 06:22 PM.
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Old 06-02-19, 08:08 PM
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Iím 100% sure it is allowed in auto racing also.

I could see it coming into play in 24 Hours of LeMans or Daytona.
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Old 06-03-19, 05:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Within the last 5. No free laps.
.
So would that be allowed in the letter of the rules?

A mechanical incident or crash warrants assistance. Even in WT stage races within the last 3k no GC penalty is given.

That's a really interesting (unfortunate) scenario.

I'd say hella kudos to the teammate for being heads-up, and double kudos to the both of them to drive hard enough to regain a field closing in on the finish.

I'm curious as to whether or not that would be allowed within the "spirit of the rules" if an official protest was made.
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Old 06-03-19, 06:29 AM
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If the rider had been in the field for some time at that point, one could argue that they were then re-integrated into the field, and thus that work was fair, even though the rider who went down was a lap up.

On a side note, I did once see an official get the rules backward and start yelling at someone who was trying to lap the field because a dropped rider was on their wheel - the dropped rider was trying to use the guy trying to lap up to get back into the field. It was a bit chaotic.
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Old 06-03-19, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
So would that be allowed in the letter of the rules?

A mechanical incident or crash warrants assistance. Even in WT stage races within the last 3k no GC penalty is given.

That's a really interesting (unfortunate) scenario.

I'd say hella kudos to the teammate for being heads-up, and double kudos to the both of them to drive hard enough to regain a field closing in on the finish.

I'm curious as to whether or not that would be allowed within the "spirit of the rules" if an official protest was made.
My "feeling" is it should be allowed - in the "spirit of the rules", but it is against the letter of the law. I may check with a higher authority in the future. I just thought it interesting about lapping.

You cannot help a teammate someone on a different lap. Had the teammate dropped back to help him up before he had lapped the field, it is clear he should have been penalized. Once he lapped the field you could argue he was on the same lap. Except he isn't for scoring. The rule didn't account for such a situation. IMO that is when a human decides best and uses rules as guidelines. In this case I do not know if the officials were aware of it, and it was not protested, no one that I know asked. This was not a UCI race.

The thing about mishaps in cycling is they are part of the sport and the risks the cyclist took or experience. A rider that crashes was likely going too fast, or behind the wrong rider, chose to ride in a more risky spot, or selected equipment a bit too on the edge. This goes against my preference as a spectator to have the rules enforced and that rider just race another day. But the amount of exceptions being given all the time at the UCI level puts this one well within the control of human judgement.
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Old 06-03-19, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
If the rider had been in the field for some time at that point, one could argue that they were then re-integrated into the field, and thus that work was fair, even though the rider who went down was a lap up.

On a side note, I did once see an official get the rules backward and start yelling at someone who was trying to lap the field because a dropped rider was on their wheel - the dropped rider was trying to use the guy trying to lap up to get back into the field. It was a bit chaotic.
That used to be the thing. The rider who was back technically wasn't allowed to jump on the lapping rider's wheel. They changed this a few years back.

This is another 5 second take in between parts of the work day for me but the issue has always been wanting to do something that is right for the front end of the race, but it also applies to the back end of the race and causes problems. Go the other direction and it's the reverse problem (works for the back of the race but not the front). Compound it in areas where there aren't many crits.....so the officials aren't as used to seeing it and you can have problems.

Would love to pull out the rules and go over them if someone has the time to find and post. Everytime I turn around now the rules are changing or there isn't a rule book, etc. Meh.
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