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Cutting but not eliminating carbs

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Cutting but not eliminating carbs

Old 06-03-19, 11:01 AM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
In keeping with the myriad problems with nutrition information in our current age, the research you produces is far from conclusive or all encompassing, is merely (possible) corollary rather than causative support for the idea, and that's without even talking about the lack of understanding of possible causes.

In short...it is a terrible way to make nutrition decisions...
Someone said they'd never seen a study correlating blood pressure and low carbs. As I noted in the post, "A quick Google produced" a couple of links directing one to studies showing a correlation.

Nothing in that post gave even the inkling that it was a conclusive or thorough review of the literature, and comprehensive analysis of the phenomenon, or that it was a recommended way to make nutrition decisions.

It did, however, answer the very specific question raised by the previous post.

Your post does do a tremendous service, however, by illustrating the reason this is such a difficult subject to discuss. Rather than simply respond to statements and questions directly, there is a tendency to address a set of assumptions and positions the poster may or may not share.

In the interest of full disclosure, I lost 165 lbs, reversed my diabetes, lowered my blood pressure, improved my cholesterol, and experienced a wide range of benefits from adopting a moderately low carb diet. I did a lot of other things, too. I try not to talk too much about the specifics of what I did, because it has been my experience that individual responses to diet vary widely. There is no guarantee that someone doing what I did would get similar results, and my own process was considerably more involved tha going on X diet or reducing carbs.

While a few general principles are well established, the diet and nutrition industries run well beyond the data, and make all sort of claims based on insufficient data, IMHO.

With all that said, thank you for noting that one single correlation would be a terrible way to set an all encompassing diet. Blood pressure is highly overdetermined, and while there does appear to be a correlation between lowered carbohydrate consumption and lowered blood pressure, the relationship is complicated in practice.
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Old 06-03-19, 12:29 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post
Someone said they'd never seen a study correlating blood pressure and low carbs. As I noted in the post, "A quick Google produced" a couple of links directing one to studies showing a correlation.

Nothing in that post gave even the inkling that it was a conclusive or thorough review of the literature, and comprehensive analysis of the phenomenon, or that it was a recommended way to make nutrition decisions.

It did, however, answer the very specific question raised by the previous post.

Your post does do a tremendous service, however, by illustrating the reason this is such a difficult subject to discuss. Rather than simply respond to statements and questions directly, there is a tendency to address a set of assumptions and positions the poster may or may not share.

In the interest of full disclosure, I lost 165 lbs, reversed my diabetes, lowered my blood pressure, improved my cholesterol, and experienced a wide range of benefits from adopting a moderately low carb diet. I did a lot of other things, too. I try not to talk too much about the specifics of what I did, because it has been my experience that individual responses to diet vary widely. There is no guarantee that someone doing what I did would get similar results, and my own process was considerably more involved tha going on X diet or reducing carbs.

While a few general principles are well established, the diet and nutrition industries run well beyond the data, and make all sort of claims based on insufficient data, IMHO.

With all that said, thank you for noting that one single correlation would be a terrible way to set an all encompassing diet. Blood pressure is highly overdetermined, and while there does appear to be a correlation between lowered carbohydrate consumption and lowered blood pressure, the relationship is complicated in practice.

Fair enough. I probably should have worded it as "research has not shown, or even strongly suggested that lowered carbohydrate intake lowers blood pressure."

Now, there ARE a lot of pretty well researched benefits to lowered carbohydrate intake, especially simple sugars. Decreased risk of diabetes, decreased calorie density of food, resulting (generally), in lowered calorie intake (weight loss...). And I know you're not really arguing against this, but I just wanted to reiterate...

It has not been shown in any conclusive way (or even strongly suggested...) that reduced carbohydrates lowers blood pressure on its own.
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Old 06-03-19, 01:30 PM
  #53  
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Carbs get a bad reputation because the cover a lot of territory. But, carbs are not evil. However, there is not a lot of good you can say about simple sugars. I think we need to make that distinction more often.
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Old 06-03-19, 03:31 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by bbbean View Post

In the interest of full disclosure, I lost 165 lbs, reversed my diabetes, lowered my blood pressure, improved my cholesterol, and experienced a wide range of benefits from adopting a moderately low carb diet.
There are many people out there who accomplished the same thing as you by going on a high carb, low fat and moderate protein diet. It just goes to show that there is more than one way to health and fat loss. There are no absolutes and no" one size fits all diets" and each person needs to find what works for them.
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Old 06-03-19, 03:38 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
There are many people out there who accomplished the same thing as you by going on a high carb, low fat and moderate protein diet. It just goes to show that there is more than one way to health and fat loss. There are no absolutes and no" one size fits all diets" and each person needs to find what works for them.
It's almost as if I hadn't followed that quote with "I try not to talk too much about the specifics of what I did, because it has been my experience that individual responses to diet vary widely. There is no guarantee that someone doing what I did would get similar results, and my own process was considerably more involved than going on X diet or reducing carbs."

Thanks so much for your insightful post. It added so much to what I'd already written.
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Old 06-03-19, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by KraneXL View Post
Carbs get a bad reputation because the cover a lot of territory. But, carbs are not evil. However, there is not a lot of good you can say about simple sugars. I think we need to make that distinction more often.
Most people know the distinction but they just refuse to do the right thing and eat what's good for them. I mean how many people actually spend time and cook at home and eat things such as beans, lentils, rice, whole grains, fruits and vegetables ??. Most people don't like the taste of whole foods in their natural state. It's a lot easier to go to a drive through and order some artificially flavoured junk....Junk food is engineered to be addictive and tastes a lot better than whole foods in their natural state.
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Old 06-03-19, 04:25 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Most people know the distinction but they just refuse to do the right thing and eat what's good for them. I mean how many people actually spend time and cook at home and eat things such as beans, lentils, rice, whole grains, fruits and vegetables ??. Most people don't like the taste of whole foods in their natural state. It's a lot easier to go to a drive through and order some artificially flavoured junk....Junk food is engineered to be addictive and tastes a lot better than whole foods in their natural state.

I'm not entirely convinced the main factor is taste. Most/many healthy foods are quite tasty, even for people that normally eat garbage.

I would say, in no particular order, there are 3 main things that cause the average person to eat garbage.

1) Convenience. Dinner doesnt get easier, faster, with less required thought than a drive through

2) Cost. Good food IS expensive. At least generally more so than crap.

3) Cultural. People (many) dont want others to think they're hippie namby pamby vegetarians.
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Old 06-04-19, 12:04 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Abe_Froman View Post
I'm not entirely convinced the main factor is taste. Most/many healthy foods are quite tasty, even for people that normally eat garbage.
Another factor is: the ability of many (most?) people to sense "good" tastes in healthy foods can change, once nixing "garbage" (heavily-processed foods) from the diet.

In my own case, it took a few months but, going "natural" with nearly all of my intake (years ago) resulted in my tastes changing dramatically. Gradually, organically-grown vegetables and fruits became much more flavorful, and the heavily-processed stuff tended to taste much more bland (despite the best efforts of "food" companies to engineer otherwise). Big surprise, for me. But a welcome one.

Amazingly, ditching every "bottled" dressing, sauce and other condiment from the kitchen can result in great improvements as well. Particularly if replaced with sensible choices in freshly-ground spices, fresh herbs, homemade vinaigrette, homemade sauces.

Can end up with vastly improved nutrient profile, along with vastly improved flavors. Greatly reduces the perceived downside of loss of "tasty" processed foods, when most other foods can be made quite tasty with a bit of judicious use of spices and herbs.

My own go-to items that replace "bottled" dressings, sauces and spreads: mustard (a nearly zero calorie condiment; better still, if homemade); pepper corns, cumin seeds; cardamom seeds; dried peppers (various); fresh peppers (various); fresh herbs including basil, tarragon, thyme, rosemary; garlic and onions. Used when making nearly any sauce or dressing, these can result in an amazing array of flavors.
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Old 06-04-19, 12:38 PM
  #59  
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Counterpoint, on the question of the utility of cutting carbohydrates.

Life lessons from the native tribe with the healthiest hearts in the world @ CNN, written by Dr. Sanjay Gupta, May 21 2019.

Summary -- that the tribal Tsimane people of Peru generally have a diet consisting of ~70% of carbs (plantains, cassava, rice, corn), ~15% of fats, and ~15% of protein, twice the average fiber intake as the average U.S. citizen, and loads of micronutrients. They are very physically active, as well.
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Old 06-04-19, 09:01 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Clyde1820 View Post
Counterpoint, on the question of the utility of cutting carbohydrates.

Life lessons from the native tribe with the healthiest hearts in the world @ CNN, written by Dr. Sanjay Gupta, May 21 2019.

Summary -- that the tribal Tsimane people of Peru generally have a diet consisting of ~70% of carbs (plantains, cassava, rice, corn), ~15% of fats, and ~15% of protein, twice the average fiber intake as the average U.S. citizen, and loads of micronutrients. They are very physically active, as well.
I freaking love plantains. I must be part Peruvian? 🤔
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Old 06-04-19, 09:52 PM
  #61  
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Yeah, they are very physically active and they simply don't have enough food to get overweight ("intermittent fasting was part of the culture, not because it is fashionable but because of food scarcity" - from the article). No special diets, no special exercises. Very healthy hearts. And life expectancy about 50 years...

Somehow this reminds me of aquarium fish. One of the most common causes of death is overfeeding. In their natural environment they never have too much food, so their instincts are to eat as much food as they can fit inside their bodies. And then some.
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Old 06-05-19, 01:31 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Oso Polar View Post
Yeah, they are very physically active and they simply don't have enough food to get overweight ("intermittent fasting was part of the culture, not because it is fashionable but because of food scarcity" - from the article). No special diets, no special exercises. Very healthy hearts. And life expectancy about 50 years...

Somehow this reminds me of aquarium fish. One of the most common causes of death is overfeeding. In their natural environment they never have too much food, so their instincts are to eat as much food as they can fit inside their bodies. And then some.
Which just goes to underscore what I've always advocated: I don't care who you are, or what ailment you've got. If I put you on a desert island and provided you with only health food you had to forage for you'd lose weight. The fast food restaurant is the greatest curse on American culture in the history of the nation.

We are fat, fat, fat, with no end in sight. Saw a mom feeding her obese 8 ~ year old son a caffe latte moch choca yah yah da da. And she had one too.
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Old 06-05-19, 11:14 AM
  #63  
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BP of 106/60 at 73. High carb, moderate protein, lacto-ovo-pisco diet. Other than not eating meat, no particular reason, I just eat what makes me feel good. I don't count anything except TSS. Main thing is don't eat too much, eat natural, organic foods, wide variety. Ride lots. Lift weights some. Enjoy being alive.

I wouldn't limit criticism to fast food - all restaurant food in the US is terrible in that it caters to the decadent. Way too much food, almost no vegetables, low quality fats. My wife and I split a restaurant meal and that's not really satisfactory either because it's still too much bad stuff, not enough good stuff. We very seldom eat anything but our own cooking. I look at a restaurant plate and think, "My god, one person is supposed to eat this stuff?!" Horrible.

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Old 06-05-19, 05:28 PM
  #64  
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I think it's a little short-sighted to only look at diet in terms of carb's, fat and protein. You have to look deeper into each and see what other nutrients it's bringing with it.

None are uniquely bad for you, they just either have the nutrients your body needs, or they don't. So I try to eat more of the stuff that's more nutrient dense per Calorie and ignore the fat, carb or protein proportions of my diet.

For cycling, I do concentrate on consuming mostly carbs during the ride. After the ride I'll continue the carbs and add in some protein for another 20 to 30 minutes before going back to normal stuff.
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Old 06-06-19, 02:24 AM
  #65  
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Well these are the maro-nutrient so they are the most important in our daily diet. Actually, it is possible to survive without carbs, but it would be more difficulty and generally unhealthy to live long without at least supplementing many of the valuable vitamins and minerals most of them contain.
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