Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like :The Dirty Kanza". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

Niner RLT 9 RDO Build

Old 04-05-17, 05:39 PM
  #76  
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...continued from previous post.

A Shimano Ultegra RD-6870 Di2 "mid cage" GS derailleur attached to the derailleur hanger via a 6 mm bolt with a dab of blue threadlocker on the threads. Shimano torque spec is 8-10 Nm. The photo below shows the back of the derailleur. Everyone knows what the front of a derailleur looks like. The instructions mention and on/off switch but I can't find it.



Shimano officially supports 32 tooth cassettes with GS derailleurs but this build uses a lower geared 36 tooth SRAM cassette. The B screw on the derailleur controls the height of the idler pulleys relative to the largest sprocket and so the screw was turned almost all the way clockwise prior to installation in the hopes that the pulley would clear the cassette. I'd like to know for sure if it will clear the cassette but I'm not sure if Di2 derailleurs can be damaged by being pushed manually and so will have to defer for now.

This is the B screw...



This is how the B screw interfaces with the derailleur hanger...




The 3 mm bolt holding the derailleur hanger to the frame, visible just below and to the right of the axle threads, was pretty loose.



Just in case anyone forgot what a derailleur looks like...



I was working outside and at this point a thunderstorm hit. The wheels went on, everything was brought inside and the levers were put on indoors.

Levers are Shimano ST-R785 Di2/hydraulic and I'll post more details about these after the hoses are plumbed and the system bled. The covers were pulled back and a 5 mm hex head is used to loosen the circular clamps which hold the lever to the bar. I took the clamps completely off and slid them onto the bar independent of the levers out of fear of damaging the carbon bar.

Photos of the install were accidentally deleted so you will just have to take my word for it. Here is what the back side of the right (rear) lever looks like.



And the requisite progress photo. Still messing with fit.




-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-07-17 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 04-06-17, 01:35 PM
  #77  
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04-06-17

Front derailleur installed.

The derailleur is an Ultegra FD-6870 Di2 model and the clamp is a Dura Ace SM-AD91-L 34.9 mm adapter for braze on derailleurs.





Unlike the Parlee adapter clamp previously discussed, the Shimano clamp fit both the frame and derailleur perfectly. It is very nicely made and is surprisingly light.



The derailleur was attached to the clamp and then the clamp went around the seat tube between the two bottle cage bolt holes. Both use a 5 mm hex head bolt at 5-7 Nm torque.

Shimano provides a handly little orange sticker on the derailleur which helps align it to the outside edge of the biggest chainring - just line up the teeth with the drawing on the sticker, make sure the derailleur cage is parallel to the chainring and tighten the bolts.




Bottle cages clear the derailleur clamp using two nylon spacers.




Last edited by TimothyH; 04-07-17 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 04-06-17, 01:49 PM
  #78  
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Hey, Tim...I didn't see you mention doing it, so I'm going to ask...did you put the protective FD-sticker on your frame and set the bracing screw?
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Old 04-06-17, 02:01 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Hey, Tim...I didn't see you mention doing it, so I'm going to ask...did you put the protective FD-sticker on your frame and set the bracing screw?
Thanks for pointing this out! Good catch!!!

Going from memory I thought both were not needed but at your prompting checked the documentation. The bracing screw is needed but the clamp itself takes the place of the protective sticker "backing plate".

See pg 27 at http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-UL0001-03-ENG.pdf

I can't remember seeing the screw in the package. Maybe it is already on the derailleur? It will have to come off to check.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-06-17 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 04-06-17, 03:08 PM
  #80  
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Yes, really good catch.

The screw is integrated into the derailleur. It just had to be tightened down against the clamp after the derailleur was mounted.






-Tim-
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Old 04-06-17, 04:26 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Yes, really good catch.

The screw is integrated into the derailleur. It just had to be tightened down against the clamp after the derailleur was mounted.

[IM G]https://www.dropbox.com/s/n2vlyno82wauovn/04-06-17.front.derailleur.004.sm.jpg?dl=1[/IMG]

[IM G]https://www.dropbox.com/s/j8hj1ztwa9j8qh3/04-06-17.front.derailleur.005.sm.jpg?dl=1[/IMG]


-Tim-
BTW...In my fussing around with a DA9070 Di2 FD....you're going to probably need to remove the FD in order to seat the e-tube cable. Only way I found to do it was with the E-tube tool poking through the FD cage. So either you crank comes off, or the FD comes off.
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Old 04-06-17, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
BTW...In my fussing around with a DA9070 Di2 FD....you're going to probably need to remove the FD in order to seat the e-tube cable. Only way I found to do it was with the E-tube tool poking through the FD cage. So either you crank comes off, or the FD comes off.


E-Tube tool? Is that the black stick that looks sort of like a tire lever and came in the box with the brakes?

The dérailleur comes off really easy anyway but yeah, I am doing things bass ackwards. Will probably order Di2 parts tonight.

-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-07-17 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 04-06-17, 06:36 PM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
E-Tube tool? Is that the black stick that looks sort of like a tire lever and came in the box with the brakes?

The dérailleur comes off really easy anyway but yeah, I am doing things bass ackwards. Will probably order Di2 parts tonight.

-Tim-
Yup.

Its express purpose is setting and removing the E-tube connections. Does the job really well...without it there would be much more Turrets Syndrome bicycle assembly.
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Old 04-06-17, 09:27 PM
  #84  
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04-06-17

The steerer was cut.

Front wheel and front brake caliper were removed and the bike went into the stand. The spacers above the stem were removed and a sharpie used to mark the top of the stem.




The compression plug was removed from the steerer, the fork removed from the frame and the headset parts tucked away for safe keeping. A layer of tape was applied to the steerer so that it could be better marked and to prevent splintering of the carbon when cutting.

I could not find any documentation on how to cut the steerer on this particular frame/fork. The latest documentation I could find was for a 1.125" streerer carbon mountain bike fork published in 2013. That documentation says says to put the stem at the top of the steerer where the compression plug sits. Niner doesn't give a reason but my guess is that it minimizes the risk of overzealous mechanics crushing the steerer by overtightening the stem bolts. Their recommendation is to cut the steerer 5 mm below the top of the stem and put the top cap directly on the stem. Not having anything else to go by and studying the photos of the factory builds, that is what I went with. A spacer was used as a straight edge.




At this point I second guessed myself about measuring correctly and so the fork went back into the frame, the headset was assembled and the steerer marked again at the top of the stem. Satisfied that it was measured correctly, I took a ride to Home Depot for a new 32 TPI hacksaw blade and thought about whether I really wanted to cut the steerer tonight. There is no going back.

A cutting guide was used to make the cut. This was an anxious moment and I stood there for a bit before I made the plunge. The second photo below is the freshly cut steerer before being deburred with 220 grit sandpaper.






A fresh coat of carbon assembly paste was applied to the knurled portion of the compression plug and it was torqued into the steerer. The stem went on and fed up with the Niner YAWYD top cap, I installed a normal but temporary top cap from my parts bin. The front brake caliper and wheel were reinstalled, headset bearing preload set at the top cap and the stem bolts were all torqued to spec.






-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-06-17 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 04-07-17, 11:59 AM
  #85  
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I hope you're planning to align your tire labels and valve stems properly before you go out in public.
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Old 04-07-17, 02:11 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
The torque spec is printed right on the pedal and was completely ignored.
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Old 04-07-17, 02:17 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by PeaDub View Post
I hope you're planning to align your tire labels and valve stems properly before you go out in public.

I think the white label on this particular rim obviates the need for observation of that particular "rule".
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Old 04-07-17, 02:31 PM
  #88  
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Sometimes you just gotta break the rules.
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Old 04-07-17, 10:24 PM
  #89  
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04-07-17

Rear brake plumbing was installed.

Internal routing and hydraulic brake plumbing are new to me and little to no instructions come with the Niner frame. The primary source of information for the install was the Shimano Hydraulic Disk Brake dealer manual which covers the ST-R785 "Dual Control Levers" and the BR-RS805 calipers. I made up the rest as I went along.
http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-BR0004-05-ENG.pdf
Cyclepath in Portland, OR has a fantastic write up on the levers with more photos than I can provide here.
https://cyclepathpdx.com/2014/01/han...ad-components/
The bike was stripped and the frame went into the stand. The orange brake blocks were installed into the calipers just in case.

The photo below shows the underside of the bottom bracket area with the hatch removed. The three ports lead up to the head tube area and are dedicated to rear brake line and front and rear shifter cables or Di2 E-Tube wires in this case. Niner makes a big deal about this feature and claims that it makes cable and hose routing "a snap" and "a breeze." The guys in the shop where I bought the frame were oohs and ahhs over it and said it would make cable routing "so easy." I don't know about all that but it worked well. Getting the stiff hydraulic hoses through the channels was a chore however.



The hose went into the port in the rear chainstay...



It took a little finagling but it eventually popped out at the bottom bracket and was routed into the appropriate hole...



...and with a little persuading it appeared out of the downtube port.




I naturally thought about attaching the hose to the lever first but this was a mistake. It should have been attached at the caliper first and the excess hose at the levers would have been easy to deal with. Instead I attached the hose to the levers first and after cutting the hose, had very little slack to work with in the rear. Live and learn.

Another mistake was not putting the brass inserts into the hose ends on the bench before routing the hose through the frame. Shimano documentation led me to believe that the olive and fitting were held captive on the hose by the insert but they slipped on and off in spite of it. As it was the inserts were pressed into the ends of the hose using the butt end of a screwdriver after the hose had been routed through the frame.






The photo below shows the lever with the hood pulled back and the port exposed. Note the angle of the port, away from the handlebar. This causes the hose to point away from the handlebar and I'm unhappy with the way the hose does not lie close to the bar. It looks kinked. No amount of acceptable repositioning of the lever helped and the issue has been discussed on various message boards around the internet.





I'm also unhappy about the way the specified 8 mm wrench fit onto the hydraulic fitting. It seems like the fitting is somewhere between 7 mm and 8 mm and a Crasftsman open end wrench fit very loose. I would have used a flare wrench but I only have an SAE set. The Shimano doc says to grease the threads on the fitting and the outside of the olive. Torque spec for the fitting is 5-7 Nm but I've no idea how to torque a fastener which requires an open end wrench and so guestimated.

An appropriate amount of hose was left at the front of the bike to allow the bar to turn and the rear was cut. Installation of the hose end was identical to the front. Cutting and installation of the hose end was much more difficult at the rear of the bike however, due to close quarters and the brake caliper had to come off.

While photographing I noticed that the adapter under the caliper is facing the wrong way. This is a view of the underside of the chainstay.



I think the hose length is just about right and feel like everything is installed correctly with the exception of the adapter under the caliper. Anxiety remains about the kink in the hose at the lever and whether the system will hold hydraulic fluid under pressure.




-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-08-17 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 04-07-17, 11:36 PM
  #90  
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Sure enough, the 8 mm Shimano hydraulic fitting is not actually 8 mm. It felt like it was going to strip when I tightened it.

This is extremely sloppy. I've little patience for garbage like this.



Last edited by TimothyH; 04-08-17 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 04-08-17, 08:10 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Sure enough, the 8 mm Shimano hydraulic fitting is not actually 8 mm. It felt like it was going to strip when I tightened it.

This is extremely sloppy. I've little patience or tolerance for this stuff.


[IM G]https://www.dropbox.com/s/n43245o3kovz2ra/shimano.8mm.jpg?dl=1[/IMG]
Good to know. I did my brake lines at the calipers already....but used my shortie-adjustable-crescent dubbed at work "The Hazing Wrench", reserved for all persons who show up to work without a wrench.. Mainly because with a 6" lever arm getting more than 6Nm of torque is very difficult.


7.87mm is 1.7% error. Considering the machining and tolerances of everything else, surprising they'd biff a plumbing fitting.
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Old 04-08-17, 09:17 AM
  #92  
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Mystery solved.

The fittings are 5/16".

More Shimano parts substitution.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-09-17 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 04-10-17, 10:54 AM
  #93  
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04-10-17

Di2 components were ordered

There is a surprising lack of beginner information about Di2 and most websites approach the topic under the assumption that the reader is intimately familiar with every component. This is not an overview of how the system works and up to now this thread has focused on the actual assembly of the bike but given the lack of basic information I thought it appropriate to write something about how I came to select the parts.

I started with zero knowledge about the system apart from the fact that it existed. Not surprisingly, the primary source of information about Di2 was Shimano. The E-Tube compatibility chart and the Shimano Ultegra 6870 Series dealer manual were most useful.
http://e-tubeproject.shimano.com/pdf....2.1-00-EN.pdf

http://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-UL0001-03-ENG.pdf

I Googled many of the model numbers in the E-Tube compatiblity chart and poured over vendor's websites to determine what the parts were, how they worked and what was needed to put everything together. Manually looking up all the various parts was very tedious but the Ultegra 6870 dealer manual linked above contained the following useful diagrams which helped narrow things down.





Certain parts are required to make the system work. Parts like shift levers and derailleurs are obvious but the system also needs Junction A, Junction B and a battery as well as wires to connect everything together.
  • Junction A comes in 3 and 5 port flavors. It sits near the stem amd its primary function is to tie together all components in front of the rider. Junction A also functions as an interface to the system in the form of LED's and a user operated switch to put the system into different operating modes. It also has a battery charging port.
  • Junction B sits near the bottom bracket and ties Junction A to the battery and derailluers. It functions as a hub for everything beneath and behind the rider.
  • The battery installs inside the seatpost.
The photos below show the right ST-R785 shift lever with the hood pulled forward exposing the single Di2 port.





Contrast the single port above with the Shimano diagram showing a shifter with three ports and it is obvious that the Shimano documents are just a starting point. Lack of extra ports on the shifter is relevant because this build might use an optional SW-R600 remote climbing shifter so that the rear derailleur can be shifted without taking hands off the bar tops. The remote shifter will need to be plugged into Junction A necessitating the five port model.

Wires were measured as best I could using a string and ruler. It is better to have wires too long than too short. This is the plan.




This is the parts list.
  • 1x SM-EW90B 5 Port Junction A
  • 1x SM-JC41 Internal Junction B
  • 1x EW-WU111 Wireless Unit
  • 1x BT-DN110 internal Seatpost Battery
  • 1x SM-BCR2 Battery Charger
  • 1x 150 mm E-Tube Wire
  • 1x 400 mm E-Tube Wire
  • 2x 500 mm E-Tube Wire
  • 2x 600 mm E-Tube Wire
  • 1x 1200 mm E-Tube Wire
  • 3x E-Tube Dummy Plug (two spares)

The SW-R600 Remote Climbing Shifter was not ordered at this time. A Barfly Road 4 Max GPS mount was ordered however, as it will be the location for the Junction A as shown in the photo below. I can't say enough good things about Barfly products and the people who run the company.



One thing I'm unsure about is mounting the battery in the seatpost. Is some kind of mount required to hold the battery into the seatpost or does the battery come with it? Post here if you know.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-10-17 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 04-10-17, 03:42 PM
  #94  
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A Barfly Road 4 Max GPS mount was ordered however, as it will be the location for the Junction A as shown in the photo below. I can't say enough good things about Barfly products and the people who run the company.
Just so you know, I have (some version of) this mount. If you're planning to use it for a GoPro, note that mine is actually pretty terrible. It twists under very small loads and causes a really distracting rotational distortion in the video. Now maybe they've changed the materials/design since I got it (2015), but just a heads up. I moved to a steerer ring Di2 mount and a K-Edge Garmin/GoPro combo mount. It's much more stable. see youtu.be/V3qh7mRw0rE for an example (Hero 4 mounted).
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Old 04-10-17, 04:32 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post

One thing I'm unsure about is mounting the battery in the seatpost. Is some kind of mount required to hold the battery into the seatpost or does the battery come with it? Post here if you know.


-Tim-
This depends on your seatpost.

The DN110 battery comes with lockrings for use with Shimano PRO Di2 compatible seatposts. Otherwise you need some thingamajig to hold it in. Of which there are a few options:

A) Ghetto-rig something together

B) Shop one of the many Di2 battery holders for seatposts. Deda makes one, Ritchey makes one



PS-The DN110 comes with a dummy plug already in it....or should.

PPS-Depending on who you shop from your Di2 hardware may come with up-to-date firmware....or obsolete firmware. My R785 from Performance came with the latest....all my bits from JensonUSA came with old firmware.
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Old 04-10-17, 07:35 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by PeaDub View Post
Just so you know, I have (some version of) this mount. If you're planning to use it for a GoPro, note that mine is actually pretty terrible. It twists under very small loads and causes a really distracting rotational distortion in the video. Now maybe they've changed the materials/design since I got it (2015), but just a heads up. I moved to a steerer ring Di2 mount and a K-Edge Garmin/GoPro combo mount. It's much more stable. see youtu.be/V3qh7mRw0rE for an example (Hero 4 mounted).
Interesting. I saw the shaking in your video and haven't experienced any of that.

This will be my third Barfly Road 4 Max and I've used them with GPS, Light & Motion Urban series lights and a GoPro Hero 4 Session camera without a vibration issue. They have been as solid as the pavement and bike under me.


-Tim-
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Old 04-11-17, 09:30 AM
  #97  
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04-11-17

Front brake hose was installed and the GPS/Junction A mount was mocked up.

The front brake plumbing installed much smoother given the lessons learned when installing the hose to the rear. This time I started at the caliper and worked my way up to the bar. Details are identical to the rear in terms of cutting lines and fitting although this time I did get to use my 5/16 ratcheting box wrench. Unfortunately it couldn't be used on both ends.




Significant time was spent trying to engineer a hose mount out of the fender mount at the back of the fork. The way the hose rubs against the frame and fender mounting screw is not optimal. The $8000+ factory builds all have the hose just hanging in mid air as pictured but I'm not satisfied. Lack of internal hose routing on the fork is a major omission on an otherwise great product.




Technically an accessory, the Barfly Road 4 Max GPS mount will also host Junction A for the electronic system and was fitted in order to measure wire length properly.








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Old 04-11-17, 09:39 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
04-11-17

Front brake hose was installed and the GPS/Junction A mount was mocked up.

The front brake plumbing installed much smoother given the lessons learned when installing the hose to the rear. This time I started at the caliper and worked my way up to the bar. Details are identical to the rear in terms of cutting lines and fitting although this time I did get to use my 5/16 ratcheting box wrench. Unfortunately it couldn't be used on both ends.

[IM G]https://www.dropbox.com/s/odq6zicquj46bnd/04-11-17.front.plumbing.001.sm.jpg?dl=1[/IMG]


Significant time was spent trying to engineer a hose mount out of the fender mount at the back of the fork. The way the hose rubs against the frame and fender mounting screw is not optimal. The $8000+ factory builds all have the hose just hanging in mid air as pictured but I'm not satisfied. Lack of internal hose routing on the fork is a major omission on an otherwise great product.

[IM G]https://www.dropbox.com/s/3vegaltgpabtbwv/04-11-17.front.plumbing.002.sm.jpg?dl=1[/IMG]


Technically an accessory, the Barfly Road 4 Max GPS mount will also host Junction A for the electronic system and was fitted in order to measure wire length properly.

[IM G]https://www.dropbox.com/s/rzkacrxi8uk6o74/04-11-17.gps.mount.002.sm.jpg?dl=1[/IMG]

[IM G]https://www.dropbox.com/s/9xjqhvgmis5wul9/04-11-17.gps.mount.001.sm.jpg?dl=1[/IMG]

[IM G]https://www.dropbox.com/s/r5brk5iwh6caqej/014.04-11.17.sm.jpg?dl=1[/IMG]


-Tim-
I swung by my LBS today...they had a way to tag that brake line to the fender mounting bolt. I was in a hurry so didn't take a look to see what it was. In your case you might need a frame protector sticker in that location.

Word of warning...those rubber plugs that go in the fork rack/fender mounts like to come out, and you'll never be able to buy replacements.
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Old 04-11-17, 09:59 AM
  #99  
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Great, detailed thread! I don't know that I'd have the patience to go through all of this. I DO know that I don't have the mechanical aptitude to attempt it.
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Old 04-11-17, 10:08 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
I swung by my LBS today...they had a way to tag that brake line to the fender mounting bolt. I was in a hurry so didn't take a look to see what it was. In your case you might need a frame protector sticker in that location.

Word of warning...those rubber plugs that go in the fork rack/fender mounts like to come out, and you'll never be able to buy replacements.

Yeah, find out what they used to fix the hydraulic line to the mount if you can.

Do you think an autobody shop would have plugs?

I'm thinking of doing something like the ANT+ remote control lights in the photo below so that's two plugs right there.




-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-11-17 at 10:22 AM.
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