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Titanium for a gravel/road bike?

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Titanium for a gravel/road bike?

Old 07-25-17, 07:20 PM
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espressogrinder
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Titanium for a gravel/road bike?

I thought that Ti is a very forgiving ride.....heavier then carbon but lighter than steel with complete bikes equipped with Ti frame with Ultegra weighing 20 lbs. I've read that Lynskey and Litespeed are producing relaxed geometry gravel type frames now. With Ti being a strong material and medium weight material, it seems that it would be the perfect gravel frame that doesn't give up much on the pavement either. Just not much attention to Ti anymore. Is it the cost of Ti or the advancements in carbon frames that prohibit Ti from being popular in the gravel bike market?
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Old 07-25-17, 08:11 PM
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A Ti frame costs maybe $600-700USD in materials plus the cost of manpower and tools. And that is one frame at a time, and it takes an artisan welder who knows what he's doing. You can bake out carbon fiber framesets for less than the cost of Ti as a material. And apply economies of scale while you're at it. Bicycle manufacture, like all capitalist activities, is about profit and therefore margin. The more money you want to make, the less desirable Ti bikes are and the more favorable CFRP is. Hence why just like pressfit BBs that suck (but are cheaper to implement than threaded shells), carbon fiber pervades the market.


These days lots of small(er) Ti outfits to pick from. Lynskey ends up being in the middle economically. Carver actually uses Lynskey as an OEM-and sells much cheaper. And you have the Sevens, Firefly, Moots, Indy Fab, Potts, and so on at the top end economically.

Personally...my Carver is just as nice as my bespoke Seven was....and the Carver was completely built with Di2, for the cost of the Seven frameset sans headset.



With Ti, remember about $600USD-$700 in todays pricing in pre-manufactured materials (e.g. seemless 3/2.5 piping for BB and headtube and frame, dropouts, bullets, bridges, and threaded brazes)...all the rest of the price the consumer sees-whether it is $1500 frameset or a $4500 one is manpower, overhead, and profit.
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Old 07-25-17, 09:21 PM
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I have a ti gravel bike and love it.
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Old 07-25-17, 10:46 PM
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There's nice review of Litespeed tG5 and Lynskey GR250 on gravelcyclist.com. I really like No22 Drifter and Why Cycle R+ but those bikes are just to expensive for me. I'll go for carbon on my next bike.
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Old 07-26-17, 05:22 AM
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Ignoring cost and aerodynamics, I'd rather have a Ti frame than carbon for riding gravel. In fact, my most recent frame purchased for gravel is titanium. I rode a Ti cross bike in all sorts of conditions for years, and it was great. My wife loves her Lynskey Sportive more than her carbon road bike -- especially for dirt roads. Sign up for Lynskey's email list -- they have some pretty amazing deals on frames and complete bikes, including the GR250.
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Old 07-26-17, 05:22 AM
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The Moots Routt 45 would have more of a relaxed frame geo than any of the Litespeed or Lynskey offerings, but more $$$.
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Old 07-26-17, 08:38 AM
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Steel. Ti is marginally lighter than good steel. If it's a lot lighter, it's a lot flexier, typically, due to tube diameters. The biggest benefit of Ti (and it's a big one) is that Ti doesn't rust. Depending on your ride conditions, that counts for something.
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Old 07-26-17, 08:55 AM
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I'd love a Firefly.
https://fireflybicycles.com
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Old 07-26-17, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by espressogrinder View Post
Is it the cost of Ti or the advancements in carbon frames that prohibit Ti from being popular in the gravel bike market?
Cost. People who have Ti frames swear by them.
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Old 07-26-17, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Cost. People who have Ti frames swear by them.
I suspect availability may be another factor. If you walk into most LBS to test ride a gravel bike, they have cheap aluminum ones and nice carbon ones... that's it. People with Ti frames generally had to go considerably out of their way to order one -- either custom or stock geometry.
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Old 07-26-17, 10:07 AM
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Easy maintenance
With Ti frames, there's no paint to chip, and carbon frames could have possible hidden damage after a fall. Scuffs or scratches can be brushed out with a 3M pad.

My Ti bike soaks up rough road vibrations way more than my carbon bike does.
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Old 07-26-17, 01:16 PM
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My gravel bike is a custom Lynskey. It was built in 2015 -- before Lynskey had a real gravel bike -- and the geometry I spec'd is essentially identical to that of Lynskey's two current gravel models, the Pro GR and the GR 250. (No, I don't get a royalty on the geometry or design.) The geometry is also essentially identical to that of the aluminum Niner RLT9 I rode before. I loved the Niner geometry but didn't like how the aluminum frame beat me up 150+ miles into Dirty Kanza. The geometry is very stable and forgiving. If I know I'm going to be riding treacherous descents on the road, I usually take my Lynskey as the mount of choice.

Lynskey almost always has a deal going. Their GR250 gravel framesets are now advertised at $1,375 and up. Pretty hard to beat.

The Litespeed on the other hand, I've heard from a fellow gravel rider who owns one, is more of a road bike with the word "gravel" attached. Not really the mount for challenging gravel -- more of an all-road philosophy. But I haven't ridden it myself.

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Old 07-26-17, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Cost. People who have Ti frames swear by them.
Or is the love cost justification? I have a friend who broke his Ti and is now riding steel. Its lighter and faster and genearally better. Steel has come a long way.

I know right? I have the AL version, Super stiff and fast. I love this bike! With the right seat post, tires, and tire pressure it is pretty plush. So curious as to how the Ti version would be differentÖ

Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
These days lots of small(er) Ti outfits to pick from. Lynskey ends up being in the middle economically. Carver actually uses Lynskey as an OEM-and sells much cheaper. And you have the Sevens, Firefly, Moots, Indy Fab, Potts, and so on at the top end economically.
Wow, that is good to know. Lynskey always seems to be on sale, and Bikes Nashbar had Lynskey at Carver prices. Good to know what my alternatives are, thanks!
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Old 07-26-17, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by chas58 View Post
Or is the love cost justification? I have a friend who broke his Ti and is now riding steel. Its lighter and faster and genearally better. Steel has come a long way.



I know right? I have the AL version, Super stiff and fast. I love this bike! With the right seat post, tires, and tire pressure it is pretty plush. So curious as to how the Ti version would be differentÖ


Wow, that is good to know. Lynskey always seems to be on sale, and Bikes Nashbar had Lynskey at Carver prices. Good to know what my alternatives are, thanks!
I bought a Litespeed road frame, my first ti bike, and built it up a couple years ago and it made me wonder what the hell I had been doing all my life. I've had many bicycles of all makes, materials, and formats in my life but now all of my bikes are titanium. I had 3, reduced to 2. Titanium would absolutely be my first choice of frame material if/when I were go bike shopping. Ride quality is the thing for me, durability being a great by product.
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Old 07-26-17, 01:47 PM
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Yeah, all of the above re: cost. But if you can get past that, ti makes for a sweet bike for rough surfaces. I don't have a gravel ti bike but I have ridden both my TiCycles on the gravel stretches of recent Cycle Oregons with no issues (except 23c is a little skinny and steep head tube angles and short chainstays aren't what you would pick). I could easily see a gravel designed ti bike being a sweet ride for any non-paved "road".

That said, my ancient steel Peter Mooney is going on CO this year for its many miles of gravel because it can handle big tires. 35c easily. Bigger if I don't mind deflating the rear to put the wheel on. (Tire wedges in the chainstays and the axle won't clear the horizontal dropout. 35c jams but clears the dropout with scraped paint. I made choices to try to enable this bike to do a bit of everything 40 years ago. The horizontal drops are to leave the door open to setting the bike up fix gear. At year 38, I am now doing just that!)

For riding off the pavement, I really like the security of knowing that a crash is less likely to leave me with a completely unrideable bike. I just might need it to get back.

Edit: Another builder to put in the ti mix - TiCycles. Not a big name, but Dave Levy has been building ti bikes >25 years. Started right around when Merlin and Lynskey were starting. If you have an unusual project, he will do it. (And as an engineer with serious machining tools and skills, steel and ti welding skills and a really nice touch with a brazing torch, he can make just about anything. In fact he lives for those challenges.)

Ben

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Old 07-26-17, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by chas58 View Post
Or is the love cost justification? I have a friend who broke his Ti and is now riding steel. Its lighter and faster and genearally better. Steel has come a long way.
I don't know, I don't have first-hand experience with riding Ti, but the OPs question was why isn't Ti more common.

FWIW I love my steel bikes but my aluminum gravel bike rides great (with quality tires), and at some point I hope to own carbon and Ti bikes. Or some other space-age material that they don't use yet.
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Old 07-26-17, 02:54 PM
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Why not Ti? Salsa claims their new aluminum warbird is more compliant than their Titanium warbird. Food for thought!!!

Steel is pretty versatile and amazing. Yeah, my (high end) steel frames weigh ~2lbs more than an ultralight carbon frame, but frame weight is not a limiting factor in gravel grinding, and you can make that weight up in components if you really want to (I did).
Aluminum is just plan wonderful – light, stiff, fast. It may be too stiff for gravel, although I have heard the new welding/forming techniques address that. Salsa claims their new aluminum warbird is more compliant than their Titanium warbird. Food for thought!!!
Carbon: I have ridden some stupidly stiff carbon road bikes, and some amazingly compliant gravel bikes. Properly designed, it can be amazing. It does scuff, scratch and chip easily. Still, I have a 30 year old carbon bike that I have beaten to death, and it’s still going strong.
Ti: IT seems to me the biggest benefit is aesthetic, and durability. (although there are lots of threads about Lynskey frames cracking). It’s not particularly stiff, light, but can be compliant. I’ve never ridden one, so I’m curious (I own several variations of the above materials). And, like any of these materials, it is highly dependent on design and manufacturer to get out whatever quality you want.

Still, its tempting to get the Lynskey frame and swap over parts from one of my current bikes – except of course that the industry standards are constantly changing, making most of my stuff obsolete…

Either that or get a bike's direct bike, toss the frame out and build up a Lynskey with the parts.
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Old 07-27-17, 11:37 AM
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Here is an interesting article on a Ti bike. It seems to do a good job summarizing the strength and weaknesses of Ti:

During my early rides, my impression of the Suppresio suffered because it was a little heavier and not quite as responsive as the carbon bike I had just finished reviewing. Composites will always trump metals in both regards, so it wasnít surprising that the bike was having a little trouble living up to this expectation.

The bike could be ridden aggressively in short bursts and it would respond well, but I found it was more satisfying to use it for longer, steadier efforts.

I really enjoyed driving the bike while staying seated on the saddle.

There was less satisfaction when jumping out of the saddle to stamp on the pedals. The bottom bracket and chainstays always felt sure and sturdy under load, but there wasnít an excess of stiffness on display to impress more demanding riders such as pure sprinters.

the modest responsiveness seemed to suit the workhorse personality of the bike. Nevertheless, for those buyers that prefer a rigid bottom bracket and rock-hard chainstays, I donít expect the Suppresio will satisfy.

My favourite characteristic of the Suppresio was its serene ride quality. This is something that titanium is well known for, and I really started to cherish it after Iíd been on the bike for about a week. In general terms, titanium consistently takes the edge off the shocks and vibrations travelling through the chassis, but there is more to it than that.

Trying to put words to it is futile, though. Iíve yet to discover an equivalent for it, so the only way for anybody to understand it is to experience it. Even then, itís a nuance that not all riders may appreciate. Be that as it may, Iíve developed quite a bias for it and was able to consistently enjoy it during my time on the Suppresio.


Refference: https://cyclingtips.com/2017/07/witt...-frame-review/
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Old 07-27-17, 01:19 PM
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I received my Litespeed 2018 Titanium Gravel bike this monthand all I can say is the difference between carbon and titanium is huge. Thetitanium just seems absorb the washboard gravel which is resulting in increasedspeeds and confidence on the gravel. Granted the bike was expensive but, I’mlooking at this as lifetime investment as opposed to a carbon frame which ismore prone to breaking (thinking crash or in one case wrapping the derailleuraround the seat stay when the hanger broke).
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Old 07-31-17, 07:08 AM
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Good to know.

I would like a "lifetime investment" bike, but the standards are changing so often that my equipment from a few years ago is obsolete, and getting harder to find for replacement parts. Sometimes I just buy a whole used bike to get a set of high end replacement parts...
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Old 07-05-18, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I'd love a Firefly.
https://fireflybicycles.com
A great looking bike! Makes me want a Ti!
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Old 07-05-18, 10:05 PM
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FAQs - Carver Bikes

i clicked your link and their site says they have had a small company in China make the frames for the last 6 years.
Were older carver frames built by Lynskey?
do you know the name of the company in china? Always curious as to who builds what for whom. It's a fascinating global network.
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Old 07-06-18, 01:45 AM
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Iím in the market for a Ti bike. I canít decide between the LightSpeed Gravel and the Why Cycles R+
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Old 07-06-18, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ksryder View Post
Cost. People who have Ti frames swear by them.
what (exactly) was their previous bike?



so a guy goes from a Nashbar steel CX bike to a Long haul trucker to a Ti bike and swears by the Ti. his/her swearing by, means absolutely nothing.

people "swear by" taco bell too. well yeah taco bell is better than ramon noodles.

It's irrelevant and empty when people swear by something, but haven't mentioned to what it is compared to. Not talking about material, but design.
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Old 07-06-18, 04:10 AM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
FAQs - Carver Bikes

i clicked your link and their site says they have had a small company in China make the frames for the last 6 years.
Were older carver frames built by Lynskey?
do you know the name of the company in china? Always curious as to who builds what for whom. It's a fascinating global network.
Their Gravel Grinder is OEM's by Lynskey, has their handiwork all over it. Not sure who makes the rest.
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