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All-City Gorilla Monsoon steel "monster cross” bike w/ clearance for 27.5 x 2.4 tires

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All-City Gorilla Monsoon steel "monster cross” bike w/ clearance for 27.5 x 2.4 tires

Old 02-24-18, 07:37 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by wheelsmcgee View Post
I would agree most 20+Mph-averaging riders are not going to be riding on this bike, but slower riders would still get some aero benefits on fast downhills and, more importantly, anytime they are riding into serious headwinds.

I think main reason for drop bars on this bike is that it is meant to be a long-day/multiple-day adventure rig. Drop bars are great in helping avoid fatigue. Mulitiple hand positions offered by drop bars help prevent finger numbness, and adjust torso/neck position. Also, STI levers are much easier than MTB thumb shifters to be shifting all day long.
Yup. A relaxed position with a nice compact drop bar is just the best. Holding the levers feels the most natural to me, and when I hold the tops i'm in an even more comfortable position. I get neck pain easily, on some bikes with straight handlebars I can feel discomfort even on just a 1 hour ride.
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Old 02-24-18, 04:43 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Facanh View Post
Present and past.

For example aero everything, suspension travel, tyre size, geometry. Things like that. At least IMO.
Aero everything, for example, could pass for either a tt or tri bike. The Canyon Speedmax comes to mind, in which case the inclusion of a water bottle would be your factor, and that's getting a bit silly.
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Old 02-24-18, 04:47 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by jack k View Post
Aero everything, for example, could pass for either a tt or tri bike. The Canyon Speedmax comes to mind, in which case the inclusion of a water bottle would be your factor, and that's getting a bit silly.
Aero everything would be a fully-faired recumbent, velomobile.
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Old 02-24-18, 04:54 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Yes, our present era where a bike designed to take up to 2.4" (61mm) tires is most definitely not a 'road bike'.
The surly lht 26 can take up to 2.75" tires, and it is most definitely a road bike. Wherever you might try to look, something out there will blur the lines and cause exception.
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Old 02-24-18, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by HTupolev View Post
Aero everything would be a fully-faired recumbent, velomobile.
Sure, but I'm not the one who made up the aero everything category, just a respondent.
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Old 02-24-18, 05:13 PM
  #31  
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Except that it is not. The LHT's long wheelbase, long chainstays and low BB, not to mention Surly's own positioning of the LHT as a touring rig, say that the LHT is not a 'road bike' either. Swing, and a miss. Strike two.

Originally Posted by jack k View Post
The surly lht 26 can take up to 2.75" tires, and it is most definitely a road bike. Wherever you might try to look, something out there will blur the lines and cause exception.
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Old 02-24-18, 05:22 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Except that it is not. The LHT's long wheelbase, long chainstays and low BB, not to mention Surly's own positioning of the LHT as a touring rig, say that the LHT is not a 'road bike' either.
A touring bike is a type of road bike - the geometry differences you describe tend to be common factors among touring bikes. You're trying to find evidence to fit your hypothesis, which is called confirmation bias. Bikes of yore with traditional geometry tend to be closer to what we call touring geometry today. Same thing with commuting bikes. My commuting bike, in fact, has many attributes that commuters prefer, yet it is marketed as an endurance racing bike...go figure.
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Old 02-24-18, 05:29 PM
  #33  
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Strike three, yer out!

Really? That 26x2.7" meat on the LHT, evidence that you yourself introduced, is meant for smooth, paved 'roads'. I have given you five-count'em, five-clear indicators (wheelbase, BB height, seat stay length and tire clearance, Surly's own positioning), and you call confirmation bias. You are clutching at psychological straws, because you have failed to prove your point on the actual specs of bikes.


Originally Posted by jack k View Post
A touring bike is a type of road bike - the geometry differences you describe tend to be common factors among touring bikes. You're trying to find evidence to fit your hypothesis, which is called confirmation bias. Bikes of yore with traditional geometry tend to be closer to what we call touring geometry today. Same thing with commuting bikes. My commuting bike, in fact, has many attributes that commuters prefer, yet it is marketed as an endurance racing bike...go figure.
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Old 02-24-18, 05:35 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Except that it is not. The LHT's long wheelbase, long chainstays and low BB, not to mention Surly's own positioning of the LHT as a touring rig, say that the LHT is not a 'road bike' either. Swing, and a miss. Strike two.
Those categories aren't mutually exclusive. In practice, "road bike" is a phrase with lots of contextual specificity.

The LHT is a drop-bar bike whos design is primarily targeted toward use on non-technical routes, i.e. roads (paved or otherwise). In a lot of contexts, that pretty much makes it a road bike.

Speaking of Surly's own description:

The frame’s tubing is thicker-walled and larger-diameter than standard road and sport-touring frames
It's using "standard road" to differentiate the LHT. Unless the LHT was implicitly "touring road" by Surly's reckoning, there'd be no reason for the word "standard" to show up there.

Last edited by HTupolev; 02-25-18 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 02-24-18, 05:36 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Really? That 26x2.7" meat on the LHT, evidence that you yourself introduced, is meant for smooth, paved 'roads'. I have given you five-count'em, five-clear indicators (wheelbase, BB height, seat stay length and tire clearance, Surly's own positioning), and you call confirmation bias. You are clutching at psychological straws, because you have failed to prove your point on the actual specs of bikes.
Take it back a couple of posts - I asked was there ever an era where a single spec defined an intended market. You mentioned plus tire sizes excluding a market segment, I responded with a road bike that can accept those plus sizes.

Now you want to bump the single spec up to multiple specs. You're trying to reframe the entire argument to fit your hypothesis, lol, that's cute but not clever.
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Old 02-25-18, 03:29 AM
  #36  
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Let's call the Gorilla Monsoon a road bike. Since it comes with 27.5 2.4" MTB tyres it's probably not intended for people that mostly care about about Strava KOMs and average speeds on paved roads. But those people would probably ignore this bike even if it came with 23mm tyres, because it has a steel frame.

This is getting a bit silly and pointless tho, and i'm pretty sure only the manufacturer/designer can answer what the intended market was for the bike... And now thinking about it I don't even know why does this matter at all to us.

Last edited by Facanh; 02-25-18 at 04:01 AM.
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Old 02-25-18, 04:58 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Facanh View Post
....and i'm pretty sure only the manufacturer/designer can answer what the intended market was for the bike...
I was just thinking the same. A look at the All City website shows that QBP positions the Gorilla as an "adventure" bike. That works for me. It's the same way I thought about my Gen 1 Salsa Fargo back when I had that frame built. The Fargo was the wide-tire drop-bar bike that I grabbed when I left the house not knowing where I'd want to go. The Gorilla Monsoon looks to me like the same sort of bike that can cross from pavement to double-track to gravel road all in the same ride. It's a fun type of bike to have if you live in an area where everything is not paved.
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Old 02-25-18, 09:36 AM
  #38  
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Like most All City offerings, it's just a bit off in a way that makes it a non starter for me.
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Old 02-25-18, 11:26 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Yes, our present era where a bike designed to take up to 2.4" (61mm) tires is most definitely not a 'road bike'.
I checked put of this thread after seeing that a single spec, 73mm BB, apparently keeps a bike from being called a road bike.
That is so laugable that i figured it wasnt worth continuing the discussion.
But then look- the thread continued and has played out as i figured- some recognize that lines are blurred, and some can only conceptualize a paved racing road bike as being a 'road bike'.


Gravel roads are roads. If i bought this bike and used it to ride paved roads to gravel roads, its a road bike.
If i bought this bike so i could drive to graevl roads and ridw it, its a road bike.
Tire clearance be damned. Bottom bracket size be damned.

Something that has drop bars, STI/brifters, and is ridde on roads can be a road bike.

My gravel bike(call it an adventure bike, monstercross, or gravel bike, i dont care) can clear 50mm tires. It has a 68mm botton bracket though. Its seriously similar to this AllCity in style, but has a 68mm BB so its a different category according to you and others in this thread.
Thats absurd.
I can put 50mm tires on it, it has an 11sp Shimano road drivettain, flared drop bars, and is absolutely a road bike.
Call it an alt road bike if you feel it necessary to categorize it differently that a paved road race bike.


I posted this yesterday in another thread- i love these forums, they never stop delivering.


Oh- and a touring bike istcan be a road bike. My touring bike has been ridden 96% on paved roads. It has drop bars, 68mm BB, and...oh gasp- a Deore rear derailleur! But its a road bike?! Mindblow, i know.
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Old 02-25-18, 12:06 PM
  #40  
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I kinda like bikes that aren't easily put in a narrow category. I kinda like a bike that inspires the rider to think "What exactly can I do with this thing?". That's kinda the whole point of adventure, right? You say, "What is it?" I say "I don't know. Go ride one and find out. Come back and tell us all about it."
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Old 02-25-18, 02:01 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
I saw that and liked it...The geometry is a nice compromise...I suppose I'm not surprised tire clearance maxes out at 700x42, given the tube chainstays and the rear-center. NOTE the BB is 73mm MTB standard and not 68mm road standard...so you have to shop for BBs and cranks that work with that spacing. If I were shopping, I'd want something more than a SRAM 1X build kit. I mean seriously--$2,000USD and they're only getting you SRAM Apex?


I suspect they kept a straight-bore 1.125" headtube, because I don't think anyone anywhere complains about a steel fork and steel steer-tube being not stiff enough...and going tapered would only add expense in machining and weight.
My thought exactly.

Last summer I bought an All City Space Horse Disc, before they cheapened it with the new 2018 model. Mine was $1800, and has a frameset that is somewhat similar to the Gorilla Monsoon - all steel, lots of fender and rack mounts, will take 700x43 or 650x47 tires, and came with a 105 compact groupset. Again, all for $1800.


And by the way: All of this discussion of bike types and terms makes me feel like we're in an online graduate-level course in post-modern literary theory. And that's not a good thing.

Last edited by Koyote; 02-25-18 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 02-25-18, 05:21 PM
  #42  
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A 73mm BB shell is not a "single spec" it's indicative of dozens of other design choices made to accommodate off-road riding. The Gorilla Monsoon is not a gravel bike, it's a drop bar mountain bike. It's going to have mountain bike spec tubing, going to ride like a rigid mountain bike.

Someone on this forum has a gravel bike all decked out with front and rear racks and other commuting items. The bike doesn't magically become a "commuting bike" it's just a gravel bike used to commute. Same with the Gorilla Monsoon, it's got some road parts and drop bars but it's not a "road bike," to say otherwise is ridiculous.

I'm always amazed at high volume posters who appear to have very little technical knowledge. I wonder "what in the world do you post about?" and then this thread comes up and I have my answer.
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Old 02-25-18, 09:34 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
The Gorilla Monsoon is not a gravel bike, it's a drop bar mountain bike. It's going to have mountain bike spec tubing, going to ride like a rigid mountain bike.
Why cant i ride my gravel bike the same way as this Gorilla bike?
- Ive taken my gravel bike on river bottom single track which is what a rigid drop bar MTB is good for.
- I could take my gravel bike bikepacking on BLM land in Colorado which is what a rigit drop bar MTB is good for.
- I could ride this Gorilla bike on paved roads for 6 miles to get to hours of unending gravel roads and ride til my legs give out.


Why isnt it a gravel bike if i would use it the sane way i use my gravel bike?
Why isnt it a road bike if its a rigid frame and fork with a straight headtube, drop bars, and road shifting?

The arbitrary categorization of bikes is comical.

This all stemmed from the bike's headtube not being tapered. Since its a steel fork, it doesnt need to be tapered to reliably handle gravel, singletrack, and dirt roads without issue.

Talk about going down a rabbit hole.
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Old 02-26-18, 01:22 AM
  #44  
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Surley makes a Moonlader...

Is the Moonlander literally a moonlander? No, calling it a moonlander does not make it so, even if Elon Musk lands one on the moon. Likewise, riding a bike on a paved, smooth surface does not necessarily make it a 'road bike' whose primary objectivr is light weight for speed, and short wheelbase, steep head tube, high BB, and short chain stays for maneuverability. The Gorilla Monsoon shares none of those intrinsic specs. Riding it on a road does not make it a road bike any more than landing a Surly on Io make that bike a moonlander.


Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Why cant i ride my gravel bike the same way as this Gorilla bike?
- Ive taken my gravel bike on river bottom single track which is what a rigid drop bar MTB is good for.
- I could take my gravel bike bikepacking on BLM land in Colorado which is what a rigit drop bar MTB is good for.
- I could ride this Gorilla bike on paved roads for 6 miles to get to hours of unending gravel roads and ride til my legs give out.


Why isnt it a gravel bike if i would use it the sane way i use my gravel bike?
Why isnt it a road bike if its a rigid frame and fork with a straight headtube, drop bars, and road shifting?

The arbitrary categorization of bikes is comical.

This all stemmed from the bike's headtube not being tapered. Since its a steel fork, it doesnt need to be tapered to reliably handle gravel, singletrack, and dirt roads without issue.

Talk about going down a rabbit hole.
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Old 02-26-18, 08:08 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
... a 'road bike' whose primary objectivr is light weight for speed, and short wheelbase, steep head tube, high BB, and short chain stays for maneuverability. ....
So is a touring bike not a "road bike"?

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Old 02-26-18, 08:29 AM
  #46  
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No!

The raison d'être of a 'road bike' is speed and maneuverability. For that reason, the tubing is thin and light, and the geometry (BB drop, wheelbase, seatstay length, head tube and seat tube angles) are chosen for those purposes. A 'touring bike', on the other hand, aims to be able to support a heavy load, to be stable with that load, and offer comfort for long hauls. For that, its BB drop is lower, its head and seat tubes slacker, its tubing heavier, its seats stays and wheelbase longer, and its got eyelets and bosses galore for bottle cages and racks. Yes, both types of bikes ride on 'roads, but then, a Stealth fighter and a 757 both also fly through the skies, a tug boat and a speed boat both ride waves. That they ride the same roads or media does not make them the same type of craft!


Originally Posted by dgodave View Post
So is a touring bike not a "road bike"?

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Old 02-26-18, 08:41 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
The arbitrary categorization of bikes is comical.
It's not arbitrary at all, I posted this is another thread:

The main thing IMO is intent. Categories may be blurry and be hard to pin down on the consumer end, but the person designing the bike absolutely has specs for which they will apply to anything considered a road bike, a gravel bike or a mountain bike. Mainly because the CPSC mandates it as so, there is a ASTM International specification for the terrain bikes are meant to handle. Here is a link with the explanation. And here is a link to the CPSC webpage.
Your gravel bike is most likely a 2. The gorilla monsoon would be a 3 or a 4. Modern production bicycles are highly engineered goods produced in ISO Certified factories by multi-national conglomerates, designed by engineers that in some cases have decades of experience. The categories that exist are so for specific reasons, marketing has blurred these lines but there are absolutely defined lines on what bikes are designed for what intended purpose.

How many millions of dollars do you think it would cost Dorel Industries if they sold a bike built to road bike spec as a gravel bike and someone snaps the relatively under built fork on a gravel road? The first thing brought to suit would be the marketing for the bike showing how it is ridden on gravel and how the plaintiff was doing the same thing when they were injured.

The raison d'être of a 'road bike' is speed and maneuverability.
You're confusing a road racing bike with a road bike. See below, road bike is the Domain, whether it's a touring bike or a road racing bike would be the Kingdom. Bicycles don't need this level of total detail IMO but overall it's a helpful way to categorize anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxonomic_rank
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Old 02-26-18, 09:07 AM
  #48  
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@Abu

If you think all roads are created equal and that a road bike needs to be specifically built just for smooth paved roads, why are you in the gravelbiking forum?
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Old 02-26-18, 04:11 PM
  #49  
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I view road bikes as any bikes for roads. Pavement. Gravel. Yellow brick. Whatever.
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Old 02-26-18, 04:43 PM
  #50  
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Two false premises...

Originally Posted by Troy Winter View Post
@Abu

If you think all roads are created equal and that a road bike needs to be specifically built just for smooth paved roads, why are you in the gravelbiking forum?
Your question starts with two false premises, and then ends with a question that has no bearing on the debate. I am here because I want to be. Simple as that, pal.
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