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Self-Driving Car Progress-Free 2019

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Self-Driving Car Progress-Free 2019

Old 01-02-19, 06:32 PM
  #76  
tyrion
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Is that "moral dilemma" considered funny or clever in your circle of LCF comrades?
I don't know. Why don't you ask them?
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Old 01-02-19, 06:35 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Waymo and Google and a few others have been running without driver attention (but with a driver) for quite a while.
Sure, there are lots of places AVs are not ready to tackle---and sorry to use facts, but several places where they have been operating quite well in limited capacities, thank you.

But, no ... the huge investment everyone from auto manufacturers to software giants have made into AVs only proves they won't happen.
Note that Waymo is a part of the Google/Alphabet organization.
What makes you so sure that the Waymo cars are operating "quite well" in the limited area without driver attention? See: https://www.azcentral.com/story/mone...ds/2082664002/
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Old 01-02-19, 06:35 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
What happens if a self-driving car is involved in a collision and kills somebody ?? Who gets charged ??...How do you charge software or a robot, what type of a sentence do you had out ??
Isn't there already a matter of history in this with a experimental vehicle that smashed in the US and killed the person it? And haven't there been serious questions about how the tech has been unable to adequately identify non-vehicle road uses such as cyclists and pedestrians?

Maybe they are the reasons why there continues to be huge negative debate over the skills that have been used to design this system and how such results can still occur.
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Old 01-02-19, 07:04 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Note that Waymo is a part of the Google/Alphabet organization.
What makes you so sure that the Waymo cars are operating "quite well" in the limited area without driver attention? See: https://www.azcentral.com/story/mone...ds/2082664002/
And again, people imply what their own provided evidence cannot support. Because some posters are dishonest trolls, perhaps ...
Actual excerpts from that article:

Although the vans' ability to detect potential collisions and cars encroaching on their lanes seems beneficial, their strict adherence to the law and extreme caution in maneuvers such as lane changes can frustrate other drivers. [[Yeah .. . sucks when drivers scrupulously follow the traffic laws, I know.****

In multiple instances, we saw Waymo vans use their turn signals to try a lane change, only to turn it off if there was not enough room to move over.
[[color=#2980b9][[What's up with That, right? The car should go if there is room or not, right????]

Sometimes it took multiple attempts for the vehicle to successfully change lanes.

"There have been times it has missed an exit on the highway because it was being too cautious," said Beer, who said he uses the service multiple times a week to go out and run errands.
[[
Of course, if the vehicles had been any less cautious, we would be hearing complaints from the same people complaining now.]]

Waymo van avoids a near hit
On some occasions, the Waymo vehicles' ability to detect oncoming hazards seems apparent.

On a late November afternoon, we saw a van turn left from Federal Street onto Ray Road in Chandler.

The Waymo had the green light, but stopped abruptly before entering the intersection. A half-second later, a green Honda Element heading eastbound skidded to a stop in the intersection. It had run the light. The vehicles did not collide.
[[
Yeah, sounds like those AV vehicles really suck. Avoiding an accident? What's wrong with those stupid programmers??]]

On another occasion in mid-October, a different Waymo van was merging onto U.S. 60 when it was tailgated by an aggressive car.

The car passed the Waymo on the left as it entered the freeway. Meanwhile, the Waymo was moving into the left lane and had its left indicator light flashing.

The Waymo was about halfway or more into the left lane, but retreated to avoid the aggressive driver.

Even with the other car past it, the Waymo remained in the right lane and took the next exit about a quarter mile away, rather than merging onto U.S. 60.
[[Oh, Noes ... the car had to go a Quarter-Mile out of its way rather than risk a serious accident. That is SO wrong.]]

[[Again, the "problem" is that the vehicle is programmed to be cautious and to expect other drivers to be hyperaggressive dicks. And again, if the vehicles were programmed any other way, the same people whining now would still be whining.

The real complaint here? These AVs are Too Safe. That is what the complainant is complaining about here. These vehicles are Too Safe.

Sucks when more people don't get in accidents, doesn't it?]]

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Old 01-02-19, 07:45 PM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Sucks when more people don't get in accidents, doesn't it?]]
A lot of money does change hands because of accidents; not that anyone would mind giving up some economic activity to have safer traffic, right?
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Old 01-02-19, 09:11 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Sucks when more people don't get in accidents, doesn't it?
No what sucks is that you ignored everything in the article that dealt with the need for driver interaction to keep the car in operation or about Waymo/Google's evasiveness in answering any questions about how the often the human drivers have to rescue the vehicle from its inadequate responses and inability to handle driving in busy traffic conditions, especially making left turns.

Hardly the stuff of "operating quite well in the limited area without driver attention." And again, you state what their own provided evidence cannot support. You wouldn't be one of those dishonest trolls you were posting about would you?

But keep up the obsequious responses that the article demonstrates to you just how "safe" Waymo vehicle operations are; Uber cars are even safer for the public in Chandler AZ now that they aren't cruising there at any speed. What could be safer, eh?. Perhaps a return to the "safety" of the good-old-days before motorists, evil conspiracies, and paved streets defiled the landscape with their wickedness.

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Old 01-02-19, 09:25 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
No what sucks is that you ignored everything in the article that dealt with the need for driver interaction to keep the car in operation or about Waymo/Google's evasiveness in answering any questions about how the often the human drivers have to rescue the vehicle from its inadequate responses and inability to handle driving in busy traffic conditions, especially making left turns..
Except that the article explained how the car was indecisive in taking left turns, opting for safety in every case ... not that it couldn't take left turns, just that it avoided potential collisions most drivers would risk.

As for how often drivers had to intervene---the article calls it "evasiveness," which is a pejorative. In fact, Google/Waymo/Alphabet/Whoever simply said, "that is not information we are sharing with the public at this time." That's how it works with proprietary information. Sorry you have already made up your mind and cannot see much of anything except what you imagine.

Fact is, those reporters followed several AVs for several days and could not list One case of unsafe operation ... and could not list One case where the driver had to assume control to avoid an incident. The reporters never even hinted that such a thing might have happened.

Whoops ... forgot who I was arguing with. that's all of my life you get to waste tonight. I am off to play with honest adults and honest children. No time for you.

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Old 01-04-19, 05:22 PM
  #83  
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"Yes, I think the big automotive players got into the game to create the perception of slow, gradual progress in the new technologies. They do this for economic reasons: 1) because it allows them to milk innovations longer in investment markets and 2) it allows them to maintain the status quo of regular car sales and other consumer spending associated with consistent driving behaviors."

When millions upon millions of dollars are on the line, and the technology must work every time it is used, the going will be slow. After a couple of fatalities due to flaws in the tech, a company could be sued out of existence. Rush to market and you get the Chevy Vega.
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Old 01-04-19, 05:42 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
When millions upon millions of dollars are on the line, and the technology must work every time it is used, the going will be slow. After a couple of fatalities due to flaws in the tech, a company could be sued out of existence. Rush to market and you get the Chevy Vega.
It doesn't make sense that there aren't more fixed-route trials, especially with vehicles like buses, which often have driver shortages and schedule gaps during off hours.

Self-driving technology on fixed-route buses would basically just be like putting the bus on rails. You would need to hire a brake person to watch the road for safety, but the bus would basically just steer itself through the route as if it was on rails.

Such simple applications of self-driving technology are ignored in favor of all the fancy bells and whistles of lane-changing and the like. More fixed-route rail vehicles would be good and buses could serve that purpose using self-driving systems.
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Old 01-04-19, 06:24 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It doesn't make sense that there aren't more fixed-route trials, especially with vehicles like buses, which often have driver shortages and schedule gaps during off hours.

Self-driving technology on fixed-route buses would basically just be like putting the bus on rails. You would need to hire a brake person to watch the road for safety, but the bus would basically just steer itself through the route as if it was on rails.

Such simple applications of self-driving technology are ignored in favor of all the fancy bells and whistles of lane-changing and the like. More fixed-route rail vehicles would be good and buses could serve that purpose using self-driving systems.
Just goes to show ya, that nobody has any sense except for the fellow who keeps proposing this DOA scheme.
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Old 01-04-19, 07:22 PM
  #86  
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Let's cite the factor of safety among people who don't have much of a clue... oh yes, Ford has just announced recall of a million vehicles worldwide over airbag safety. Adds to the huge number of recalls by other car companies because these devices are killing people rather preventing injury. Can't wait to see what happens with "self-driving" vehicles.
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Old 01-04-19, 08:27 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It doesn't make sense that there aren't more fixed-route trials, especially with vehicles like buses, which often have driver shortages and schedule gaps during off hours.

Self-driving technology on fixed-route buses would basically just be like putting the bus on rails. You would need to hire a brake person to watch the road for safety, but the bus would basically just steer itself through the route as if it was on rails.

Such simple applications of self-driving technology are ignored in favor of all the fancy bells and whistles of lane-changing and the like. More fixed-route rail vehicles would be good and buses could serve that purpose using self-driving systems.
Simple...??? Yes It would be "simple" if it was a track system, everyone would know where the vehicle is headed, where the
vehicle is going and how fast.... and so on, but, as an autonomous vehicle, it can go anywhere.... That seems to be the "problem" at present, which will get solved eventually ...
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Old 01-04-19, 08:30 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
Let's cite the factor of safety among people who don't have much of a clue... oh yes, Ford has just announced recall of a million vehicles worldwide over airbag safety. Adds to the huge number of recalls by other car companies because these devices are killing people rather preventing injury. Can't wait to see what happens with "self-driving" vehicles.
I would "suspect" that is a "problem" because of the "lowest bidder" syndrome of capitalism... JMO.
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Old 01-04-19, 08:39 PM
  #89  
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As fa r as I can tell about ten people have died worldwide from faulty Takata airbags .... and the fault lies with the manufacturer, not with any of the car companies.

it is true there are a lot of safety recalls ... which improves safety. Not a lot of deaths though.

Hey, look at how many bicycle companies have had to do recalls, too.

Pretty much every single auto injury or fatality ... over 99 percent----has the same source----Driver Error.

Ten people die from faulty airbags over ten years. In that same period, almost half a billion people died on the roads of the U.S. alone. I can see why people think replacing the driver might be a good safety mod.

Pretty sure the people working on AI will get it to work at least as well as all the other stuff we depend on and never think about except for the one -one million failure which gets a lot of press.

AI cars would have to be ridiculously bad not to do better than humans behind the wheel. And even knowing all that ... we ride in traffic.

In any event, I have no say in the matter. Further, I don't need to try to control everything. I try to get my part right, and that's more than enough.
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Old 01-05-19, 08:00 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It doesn't make sense that there aren't more fixed-route trials, especially with vehicles like buses, which often have driver shortages and schedule gaps during off hours.

Self-driving technology on fixed-route buses would basically just be like putting the bus on rails. You would need to hire a brake person to watch the road for safety, but the bus would basically just steer itself through the route as if it was on rails.

Such simple applications of self-driving technology are ignored in favor of all the fancy bells and whistles of lane-changing and the like. More fixed-route rail vehicles would be good and buses could serve that purpose using self-driving systems.
It's not as simple as you imagine....It's so easy for you to hide behind a computer keyboard and type solutions to worlds problems.
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Old 01-05-19, 09:15 AM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
It's not as simple as you imagine....It's so easy for you to hide behind a computer keyboard and type solutions to worlds problems.
What else do people do for work besides think and communicate their thoughts? Practical implementation, you say? Well, that's just a question of rolling your sleeves up and doing the work; once you get the authorization and access to the real-estate and equipment to add your labor to. But that's the problem, isn't it, getting the authorization from a convoluted network of conflicting interests.

Think about it. It would be much simpler to just put down rails than to go through all this trouble of designing and testing self-driving vehicles, but automotive interests and other interests block passenger rail service in various ways, so then we have to use autonomous vehicle control systems without rails. Then they try to block that as well. And through it all, they keep saying that it's just a question of what the free market wants. What baloney.

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Old 01-05-19, 09:22 AM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Simple...??? Yes It would be "simple" if it was a track system, everyone would know where the vehicle is headed, where the
vehicle is going and how fast.... and so on, but, as an autonomous vehicle, it can go anywhere.... That seems to be the "problem" at present, which will get solved eventually ...
It wouldn't go anywhere except its designated route, which it would have down to a tee. It would drive the speed limit and accelerate/decelerate and make turns in the most predictable way imaginable. It would drive like a master driver trying to achieve the world record for highest score on a safe-driving test.

If other drivers are swarming around it trying to get it to rear-end them or veer off course, that would be their fault; the same as if they would try doing that to a street car on rails. Lanes where such fixed-route vehicles were operating would be marked with signage so pedestrians would be well-aware of them, just as they are well-aware of rail vehicles like street cars, passenger trains, etc.

I don't see how that could be a bad idea. It would enable a lot more convenient public transit schedules without drivers working through the night or having to return from an intercity bus run or stay the night because they are so far from home.

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Old 01-05-19, 09:46 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
It wouldn't go anywhere except its designated route, which it would have down to a tee. It would drive the speed limit and accelerate/decelerate and make turns in the most predictable way imaginable. It would drive like a master driver trying to achieve the world record for highest score on a safe-driving test.

If other drivers are swarming around it trying to get it to rear-end them or veer off course, that would be their fault; the same as if they would try doing that to a street car on rails. Lanes where such fixed-route vehicles were operating would be marked with signage so pedestrians would be well-aware of them, just as they are well-aware of rail vehicles like street cars, passenger trains, etc.

I don't see how that could be a bad idea. It would enable a lot more convenient public transit schedules without drivers working through the night or having to return from an intercity bus run or stay the night because they are so far from home.
Dealing with other cars, pedestrians, bikes, etc. is the hard part. Staying on a fixed route doesn't make things much easier.
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Old 01-05-19, 10:01 AM
  #94  
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We don't need self-driving cars . Everything is just fine the way it is.
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Old 01-05-19, 10:38 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
We don't need self-driving cars . Everything is just fine the way it is.
40,000 people don't disagree with you every year.
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Old 01-05-19, 11:35 AM
  #96  
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I predict that autonomous self driving car hype, especially regarding an alleged and unproven risk reduction capability, and PR baloney about its impending rollout (other than at test tracks and/or with direct human oversight) from its promoters and fan-bois will continue to be repeated ad nauseam in 2019 with as little to show for it in reality as in 2018.

Extract from recent article in NYT about tech predictions for 2019:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/03/t...overhyped.html
"But as is often the case, there will also be plenty of talk in the coming week about overly optimistic tech that you would do best to sidestep for now. That’s because some of the most hyped technologies — especially self-driving cars — are so far from reality that you won’t see them in stores or dealerships anytime soon."
"Here’s what is still overhyped

Virtual reality and self-driving cars have been talked about a lot in recent years, and they will still be talked about this year. But these two technologies are still nascent or premature.
[Skipped verbiage about Virtual reality]
Self-driving cars are also still many years from becoming mainstream. Even though some companies have permits to test autonomous cars in California, Arizona and elsewhere, several of the leaders in the technology — such as Alphabet’s Waymo — have refrained from committing to a release date for self-driving vehicles.

“There’s going to be a lot of noise about automotive technology, but nothing distinct or specific,” Mr. Gillett said."
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Old 01-05-19, 12:04 PM
  #97  
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I live in a region where the roads are cut into hills and the hills don't care if your car drives itself, they pitch boulders and landslides at the road anyway.

You can still get killed in one as well. I don't buy the safety argument much.

I'd rather die trying not to, if you can get that.

And I was listening to public radio and such a topic came up...the consensus was that some dude would just walk in the road to stop the cars (that bolsters my theory about gangs surrounding the car and robbing you/worse.

Very A Clockwork Orange-y to me. And I like riding with mom driving. I have seven and maybe eight bikes after this year. I could probably afford a used car for what I out into them in repairs. I'm not sure I'd want to return to the highway after 12 years, it's an alien world.
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Old 01-05-19, 03:25 PM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Rollfast View Post
some dude would just walk in the road to stop the cars (that bolsters my theory about gangs surrounding the car and robbing you/worse.
That's not a bad argument for cars, but who is going to stop an entire bus to rob it? Self-driving buses could operate during off hours and holidays without cutting into drivers' time with their families. There could be more long-distance bus routes, at a cheaper price, because the driver wouldn't have to worry about getting back home from a distant destination.
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Old 01-05-19, 04:54 PM
  #99  
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You've never heard of highwaymen...

It's just a higher tech form of carjacking.
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Old 01-05-19, 04:58 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Simple...??? Yes It would be "simple" if it was a track system, everyone would know where the vehicle is headed, where the
vehicle is going and how fast.... and so on, but, as an autonomous vehicle, it can go anywhere.... That seems to be the "problem" at present, which will get solved eventually ...
I rode Amtrak once. That hardly counts as GM's Futurama.
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