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Went down on dry pavement!

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Went down on dry pavement!

Old 03-03-19, 01:04 AM
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ThermionicScott 
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Went down on dry pavement!

Had a first yesterday, at least when it comes to riding on studded tires. I was rounding the corner of a trail on clean dry pavement and found myself on the ground suddenly. My friend and I couldnít figure it out! I hadnít struck a pedal or ridden onto an ice patch, the bike just went out from under me.

The only thing I can think of is that my particular tires (26Ē Mount & Grounds) didnít have enough grip at that lean angle and pressure. Itís something that you notice right away when walking a bike with studded tires, but Iíd think that when riding, your weight would bring plenty of rubber in contact with the ground.

So now Iíve got a quandary: should I lower my tire pressures further in an attempt to make sure more rubber is contacting the road at all times? Or could it be that my pressures are already too low and the contact patches are spread out too much for good traction? Currently Iím at 25psi front, 30psi rear, and a total system weight of about 210 lbs. Thanks!
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Old 03-03-19, 05:55 AM
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I never lean my bike over too much. I keep my bike upright as much as possible and only lean my body... When pavement is dry with no ice I run my 700x30 Schwalbee winter up to 90 psi and never went down yet.
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Old 03-03-19, 06:07 AM
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If you look at other threads you will find that nearly all riders believe that studded tires on dry pavement is not a good idea.
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Old 03-03-19, 10:00 AM
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By building wheels with rims about as wide as the tires, (45/48.5) the contact patch is wider , and so its as if I lowered the pressure..
tire profile D like rather than round.. same 26" Mount & Grounds tires, Snow Cat Rims

And I do not corner fast any more.. don't even ride far . as I'm in a small town ..

Acting my age






...

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Old 03-03-19, 10:11 AM
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With studded tires, just don't lean over much in the corners. Keep the bike straight up. Slow down if you need to. Not a big problem. I've been doing it for a few decades.
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Old 03-03-19, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by delbiker1 View Post
If you look at other threads you will find that nearly all riders believe that studded tires on dry pavement is not a good idea.
For context, there were plenty of icy patches along the ride where I was glad to have them. Itís just hard to avoid riding studs on dry pavement at some point in the winter. 😉
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Old 03-03-19, 10:49 AM
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I've not ridden on studded tires but I'd imagine at a certain lean angle you only have a few studs interacting with the pavement and nothing else. I could see this causing a slideout.

Fwiw I'll ride my mtb on dry pavement with knobbies that have pretty agressive side lugs. It feels really "nervous" if you corner aggressively, as you hit the apex the transition from smaller center lugs to the outers can be felt. It feels like hitting a sand patch, nerve wracking!

Hope you weren't hurt on your spill, I have yet this winter to dump it *knock on wood*
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Old 03-03-19, 11:10 AM
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Yeah, I didn't even think I was leaning all that hard. But maybe studs change the dry traction enough that it's just best to stay as upright as possible on any surface. And I thought I "knew" these tires. Thanks, folks.
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Old 03-03-19, 11:21 AM
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My Suomi Nokian Mount & Ground W tires have 2 rows of studs which don't protrude much at all from the lugged tread surface ..

and a significant center with out studs.. I've been using mine for 25 years ..

occasionally..

Because I'm on the Oregon coast, not eastern Iowa
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Old 03-03-19, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
My Suomi Nokian Mount & Ground W tires have 2 rows of studs which don't protrude much at all from the lugged tread surface ..

and a significant center with out studs.. I've been using mine for 25 years ..

occasionally..

Because I'm on the Oregon coast, not eastern Iowa
Yeah, we've got the same tires. I'm even using relatively wide rims as per your past recommendations, new front wheel was built with a 30mm wide rim and the rear is 28mm.
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Old 03-03-19, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Yeah, I didn't even think I was leaning all that hard. But maybe studs change the dry traction enough that it's just best to stay as upright as possible on any surface.
This

IMO, the same is true with aggressive knobbies on dry roads, and lower PSI = more squirreliness! One of my favorite paved descents is twisty and technical; on actual mud or ice, the aggressive treads and studs are great, but on dry pavement, it gets sketchy.
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Old 03-03-19, 03:16 PM
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I do ride studded tires on dry pavement and it's totally fine. But, you do lose a little traction, I'm say like 25%.

I can feel they don't grip dry road quite as well so I don't "lean" when using them much. Though to be honest...I don't usually lean much with regular tires either as I'm always a bit afraid I'll accidentally go a little to far.
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Old 03-03-19, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post


For context, there were plenty of icy patches along the ride where I was glad to have them. Itís just hard to avoid riding studs on dry pavement at some point in the winter. 😉
That certainly makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 03-04-19, 11:00 AM
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following
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Old 03-04-19, 04:01 PM
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Although I have not ridden with studded tires I have ran a few times with 'studded rubbers' on my running shoes. They were great on ice and snow but SLICK on paved surfaces. The metal spikes slide rather than grip the clean pavement. As others have said, Keep the bike upright and slow down. I would guess that your braking distance would also be lengthened especially in the case of an emergency stop.
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Old 03-04-19, 04:11 PM
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Maybe it was so cold you crashed on dry ice?
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Old 03-04-19, 04:37 PM
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A wider rim would create a larger contact patch when upright, but at the expense of less contact patch when cornering, yes? The width of the tire can't increase without the height decreasing. The wider contact patch has to get that rubber from somewhere.

When I was investigating getting studs (ultimately got the Schwalbe Marathon Winter HS) I recall reading that the cornering and braking friction was significantly reduced (on dry pavement due to the studs, so I just made sure to go slower, and brake earlier.

Last edited by Riveting; 03-04-19 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 03-04-19, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wipekitty View Post

lower PSI = more squirreliness!
Interesting comment. Because everybody says that lower tire pressure is better, I've recently lowered the pressure in my Nokian W106s down to 45 psi from about 65 psi. They actually feel less stable to me on snowy (not icy) surfaces. I suppose the lower pressure helps on bare ice, but when there's some soft or loose snow, the lower pressure doesn't seem to work that well for me. I"m considering going back to somewhat higher pressure.
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Old 03-05-19, 06:38 AM
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I think lower psi is a good suggestion for off-roading, but not necessarily dry pavement. My experience with dry pavement is positive, usually with 75% the recommended psi.
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Old 03-05-19, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
was rounding the corner of a trail on clean dry pavement and found myself on the ground suddenly
hope it didn't hurt too much. sounds like no injury? forgot to ask, did you fall to the left, or the right? there's a casual tally going on the forum where most falls seem to be to the left
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Old 03-05-19, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
hope it didn't hurt too much. sounds like no injury? forgot to ask, did you fall to the left, or the right? there's a casual tally going on the forum where most falls seem to be to the left
Just skinned my knee and wounded my pride a little (a passing car gave a whoop).

I did fall to the left, which was nice since that's my preference.

So I had been running my tire pressures on the low side to gain a bigger contact patch and a little more comfort (these tires feel a lot harder for the same psi than nicer tires in the same general size), but perhaps it would be better to bump them back up.
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Old 03-05-19, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
Just skinned my knee and wounded my pride a little (a passing car gave a whoop).I did fall to the left, which was nice since that's my preference. So I had been running my tire pressures on the low side to gain a bigger contact patch and a little more comfort (these tires feel a lot harder for the same psi than nicer tires in the same general size), but perhaps it would be better to bump them back up.
another to the left! interesting! were you joking about preferring falling to the left? I think others feel the same way. I think I do cuz I mount from the left. I fell twice the past few months, both times to the left. regardless, I think like others mentioned, the turn & off-camber physics were also contributors. it would be a bad experiment to try the same move with a higher pressure. I rode a bare & wet short bridge of sorts a few times w low pressured 29x2.1 mountain bike tires & I always tried to go slow & stay vertical. but I'll agree to use higher pressures with studded tires on bare ground. I use lower on rougher terrain when I want a softer ride, more traction & flotation over soft terrain

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Old 03-05-19, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
another to the left! interesting! were you joking about preferring falling to the left? I think others feel the same way. I think I do cuz I mount from the left. I fell twice the past few months, both times to the left. regardless, I think like others mentioned, the turn & off-camber physics were also contributors. it would be a bad experiment to try the same move with a higher pressure. I rode a bare & wet short bridge of sorts a few times & I always tried to go slow & stay vertical. but I'll agree to use higher pressures with studded tires on bare ground. I use lower on rougher terrain when I want a softer ride, more traction & flotation over soft terrain
I mount/dismount from the left, and am not very comfortable doing it from the right side, so I have extra anxiety about falling to the right.

I don't have any excuse for not being equally practiced at right-side mounting/dismounting/crashing.
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Old 03-05-19, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Interesting comment. Because everybody says that lower tire pressure is better, I've recently lowered the pressure in my Nokian W106s down to 45 psi from about 65 psi. They actually feel less stable to me on snowy (not icy) surfaces. I suppose the lower pressure helps on bare ice, but when there's some soft or loose snow, the lower pressure doesn't seem to work that well for me. I"m considering going back to somewhat higher pressure.
Sorry - should have clarified that! IME, lower PSI = worse handling with knobbies and especially studs on dry pavement, but better handling on rough surfaces (loose snow, mud, etc.)

I generally run 30 front/35 rear on my Nokian Extremes (26x2.1) when I'm likely to encounter "features" on the road, like piles of frozen stuff or sludge, deep ice ruts, snow of several inches, or ice with snow on top. I'll go slightly higher on smooth ice or snowpack and up to 65 for dry surfaces. With this bike, though, the objective is to float over rough surfaces rather than cut through.

I suspect what you've found is that with slightly thinner tires, you can get better traction by cutting through snow rather than floating, and cutting through snow requires higher pressure. That completely makes sense.
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Old 03-05-19, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wipekitty View Post

I suspect what you've found is that with slightly thinner tires, you can get better traction by cutting through snow rather than floating, and cutting through snow requires higher pressure. That completely makes sense.
Yes, this may be right. Am going back to somewhat higher pressure for my outdoor ride tomorrow (sadly, it's another zwift day today). I'll keep experimenting.
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