Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Tandem Cycling
Reload this Page >

Cantilever link wire length?

Tandem Cycling A bicycle built for two. Want to find out more about this wonderful world of tandems? Check out this forum to talk with other tandem enthusiasts. Captains and stokers welcome!

Cantilever link wire length?

Old 03-22-19, 02:08 PM
  #1  
surak
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 655

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Contend SL Disc 2, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem, Priority Classic

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 7 Posts
Cantilever link wire length?

The Deore LX cantilever brakes on my drop bar '98 Santana 26"er don't stop very good. I've tried spraying isopropyl on the pads and rims, sanding the pads, and scrubbing the rims with dish detergent, none of which made any difference. Reading Sheldon Brown's cantilever adjustment tips, it seems that there's too much mechanical advantage. The link wires are Shimano B in front (82mm) and A (73mm) rear. Seems that Shimano link wires in longer lengths are harder to source, but Tektro and Sunlite also make longer ones. Does anyone still use cantis, and are you using longer lengths? The choice seem to be between 106mm and 93mm.
surak is offline  
Old 03-22-19, 02:13 PM
  #2  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,947
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 813 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Too much mech advantage should yield good stopping but a mushy lever feel. And perhaps a sense of limited modulation.
My 1st suspiscion, after contamination of pads or rim, would be flex. Poor cabling run, poor outer cables. Maybe poor brakes ot flexy seatstays.
dabac is offline  
Old 03-22-19, 02:27 PM
  #3  
reburns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Saratoga, CA
Posts: 275

Bikes: 2005 Trek T2000; 2005 Co-motion Speedster Co-pilot; various non-tandem road and mountain bikes

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Cantilever brakes are difficult to get to work well in my experience. If it were my bike I would convert to linear pull brakes, either mini-Vs or standard length with travel agents, and use green Swisstop pads. Replace cables and housing while you’re at it.
reburns is offline  
Old 03-23-19, 03:03 AM
  #4  
Rick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 338
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 24 Times in 22 Posts
If you haven't already done so use compression less cable housing were you can. I like Yokohama compression less housing. It works the best of all I have tried. The brake yoke height should be set so there is around a 45% angle on the cable going to the arms on each side. The Swiss Stop or Kool Stop pads would be an improvement. Stopping especially on a Tandem can be a problem. It may be worth spending some money and replacing those old canti brakes. Paul Components makes two style of canti and two two style of V brake that would be an improvement from my experience. I have a 15 year old pair of the Paul Motolite V brakes that I put on my sons fuji touring bike. It came with shimano and the Paul brakes are much easier to adjust and they are better stoppers. If you really like stopping change to a straight or swept back style bar and put the Magura HS-33 hydraulic rim brakes on it. I put the HS-66 brakes on my burly bongo 16 years ago. They are the best stoppers I have ever had on a bicycle.
Rick is online now  
Old 03-25-19, 10:12 AM
  #5  
surak
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 655

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Contend SL Disc 2, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem, Priority Classic

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 7 Posts
Thanks for the responses. I will try the shotgun approach of getting new pads, longer link wires, and fresh cables plus compressionless housing (not sure how much compressionless will help since there's not much housing in my brake line runs, but I can use it for my upgrade of a Spyre caliper for HY/RD on my road bike anyway).
surak is offline  
Old 03-26-19, 10:37 AM
  #6  
noglider 
aka Tom Reingold
 
noglider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Village, New York City
Posts: 37,135

Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1973 Raleigh Twenty, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem

Mentioned: 419 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5360 Post(s)
Liked 77 Times in 60 Posts
Turn around and go the other way. You want more mechanical advantage, not less. You want the link wire to be shorter.

I agree that V brakes would be good for you, but you'll need new levers, so try what you can with your current brakes first.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author

Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
noglider is offline  
Old 03-26-19, 01:04 PM
  #7  
headasunder
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 249
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
If you have no clearance issues mini Vs are a straight swap for canti's and provide excellent stopping power, they are also a lot easier to adjust/setup
headasunder is offline  
Old 05-18-19, 03:05 PM
  #8  
surak
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 655

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Giant Contend SL Disc 2, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem, Priority Classic

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 238 Post(s)
Liked 19 Times in 7 Posts
I ended up replacing the brakes with Tektro CR710 cantis and finally have braking power.

What I tried but didn't work:
  1. Compressionless brake housing and new brake cables
  2. Kool Stop MTB pads
  3. Changing link wire to the longest 106mm length
Makes sense that brakes designed for short-pull drop bar levers work better than any kind of adjustment on brakes meant for flat bars.
surak is offline  
Old 05-18-19, 03:37 PM
  #9  
fietsbob 
coprolite
 
fietsbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 41,928

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6832 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 210 Times in 175 Posts
Unfortunately You ... have drop bars


Magura's Hydraulic rim brakes have 2 slave pistons pushing on the rim from both sides,
mounted on V/cantilever brake posts .. typically , with a straight 22.2 bar lever

maybe you can use Shimano Hydraulic road bike levers * also using mineral oil is TRP Hylex RS

a non brifter road lever... master cylinder & fluid expansion chamber for disc brakes..

I've been using the Hydrostops on my trekking bar bike for a decade , now, with no problems..


* this was suggested for their single piston skinny tire time trial/ triathlon bike brake, in another topic thread..








...


...

Last edited by fietsbob; 05-18-19 at 03:43 PM.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 11:31 AM
  #10  
base2 
Senior Member
 
base2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 970

Bikes: N+1

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 506 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 65 Times in 45 Posts
As a matter of convention, I tend to eyeball the line on the yoke half-link and try for it to be inline when the brakes are in the "applied" position.

Usually, that means that the post is inserted in the brake arm farther from the pad end than near. Then I adjust the brake cable to place the pads about 2mm from the rim. Sometimes that also means using a different frame spring hole than the one you are currently using for brake arm retraction. (Most frames have 3, some frames have one.)

A "flatter" yoke will give the greatest squeeze on the brake track. The trade off is spongy feel and potentially bottoming out the lever on the bar.

The above suggestion of compressionless housing is pretty solid to mitigate "sponge"

Also, a crown mounted cantilever cable stop can help with "shudder" if such an issue arises.

In my household we have a mix of drop-bar & flat bar bikes.
I have several of these. They're awesome. and seem to be pretty ambivalent un regards to pull ratio because they are so adjustable.

Last edited by base2; 05-20-19 at 11:34 AM.
base2 is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 01:21 PM
  #11  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,911

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 92 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1633 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 52 Times in 43 Posts
I stumbled on a site the explains cantis, setup and power rather well.

https://bike.bikegremlin.com/1739/ca...ke-adjustment/

I've been running old school cantis for 40 years, first Mafacs then early Shimanos that were a virtual copy of the Mafacs for geometry. (Those early Shimanos are on my Pete Mooney, have been for almost 30 years. Joys to own and use. Rode 70miles of grave last weekend with 5000' down and never wanted anything else.

A good picture of my setup is on the website above at 4.2 Adjustment of yoke angle in the lefthand photo. Like that brake, mine have a clamp for the straddle cable on one arm so any length straddle can be used. I also run my straddle long. Simple, good power and the performance changes little as the pads wear. The brakes have enough power that I (as a single rider) "de-tune" them with V-brake levers so when I hit them hard for that mountain corner surprise, nothing exciting happens.

There are several brakes out there with the geometry I run. Not cheap, but probably the best is the Paul "Neo Retro", a close copy of the original Mafac done far more nicely! https://www.paulcomp.com/shop/components/neo-retro/ The Shimanos I am running seem really hard to find on-line. Mine came off an early Miyata 610 of the '80s. Maybe Shimano did a run just for Miyata?

The only real drawback I can see to wide profile cantis is heel clearance. I've never hit them with mine, so I see zero reason to change. When my ancient Shimano die, I'll go out and fork over the cash for the Neo Retros.

Ben
79pmooney is offline  
Old 05-20-19, 03:48 PM
  #12  
spacemaniss
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Toledo OH
Posts: 7

Bikes: Fuji Jari, GT Avalanche, Trek T200 tandem

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
You need a shorter link cable. I have similar Shimano Cantilever brakes with Dia Compe aero levers on my Trek T200. Shimano link wire coded B (I think 82 mm) works the best. Good balance between mechanical advantage and not bottomming out a brake lever. I also tried a shorter Link coded A (72 mm), it makes stopping power even stronger, but I use about 90% of brake lever travel, and to make the brakes properly, the pads need to be adjusted perfectly. Wheel removal becomes a problem too. 90-100 mm link wire I just think is just too long, that's why you don't get enough braking power.
spacemaniss is offline  
Old 05-21-19, 11:09 AM
  #13  
base2 
Senior Member
 
base2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 970

Bikes: N+1

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 506 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 65 Times in 45 Posts
Originally Posted by spacemaniss View Post
You need a shorter link cable. I have similar Shimano Cantilever brakes with Dia Compe aero levers on my Trek T200. Shimano link wire coded B (I think 82 mm) works the best. Good balance between mechanical advantage and not bottomming out a brake lever. I also tried a shorter Link coded A (72 mm), it makes stopping power even stronger, but I use about 90% of brake lever travel, and to make the brakes properly, the pads need to be adjusted perfectly. Wheel removal becomes a problem too. 90-100 mm link wire I just think is just too long, that's why you don't get enough braking power.
You would need a shorter wire if no pad post adjustment were made. The effect you are affecting (& looking for in this case) is still a flatter straddle cable.

Either way has the same end result and one method may be more favorable than the other depending on the particular spacing of the studs on a particular bike.

Good point.
base2 is offline  
Old 05-26-19, 03:01 PM
  #14  
LV2TNDM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Northern CA
Posts: 302

Bikes: Cannondale tandems: '92 Road, '97 Mtn. Mongoose 10.9 Ti, Kelly Deluxe, Tommaso Chorus, Cdale MT2000, Schwinn Deluxe Cruiser, Torker Unicycle, among others.

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Add a brake booster too.

Originally Posted by surak View Post
Thanks for the responses. I will try the shotgun approach of getting new pads, longer link wires, and fresh cables plus compressionless housing (not sure how much compressionless will help since there's not much housing in my brake line runs, but I can use it for my upgrade of a Spyre caliper for HY/RD on my road bike anyway).
I didn't see anyone suggest adding a brake booster. Sorry if I happened to miss it. I had significant cantilever post flex on my Cannondale rear brake, so I added a booster to prevent the canti posts and seatstays from flexing outward. I use the DKG booster and it greatly reduces flex, if not eliminates it, and improves hard braking performance. But you'll have to scour the web for them used. Note that the booster is still a good idea even if you've improved braking performance because when you hit rain, you're going to have to apply a LOT more braking force to stop with wet pads & rims!
LV2TNDM is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Surlyrider
Advocacy & Safety
23
05-25-12 06:29 PM
zeo_max
Road Cycling
6
02-02-11 04:47 PM
fattymcbastard
Great Lakes
0
07-11-08 03:02 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.