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Italian Road Bike ? ID?

Old 05-19-19, 05:03 PM
  #1  
SoCalJim
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Italian Road Bike ? ID?


I found this at a garage sale a few weeks ago and would love to know the make and worth. From what I have found so far it looks like the parts are from the late 60s early 70s ?
The bike weighs about 24 pounds as pictured . The Maxy crank and 27 inch wheels seem to point to a bike made for export if Italian . It has some really nice lugs that stand out and I'm hoping some one will recognize them. The seller thought the name started with B which is also on the seat bolt but he also gave me a set of 700cc tires he thought fit it so he was kind of clueless and added his neighbor gave it to him for helping him. The seat tube and top tube are both 59cm. It has Campy record derailleurs and hubs and ambrosia bars and neck . The paint is terrible but no dings or frame damage . No markings on the dropouts and no serial number .





Thanks Jim

Last edited by SoCalJim; 05-19-19 at 05:07 PM. Reason: add picture
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Old 05-19-19, 05:31 PM
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BB she’ll threading?
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Old 05-19-19, 07:09 PM
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Thanks but that's beyond my skill set . I could take it out but wouldn't know how to measure it. The shell is 70mm wide .
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Old 05-19-19, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by SoCalJim View Post
Thanks but that's beyond my skill set . I could take it out but wouldn't know how to measure it. The shell is 70mm wide .
70 mm is the Italian standard.
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Old 05-20-19, 05:06 PM
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-----

Possible date: ~1964

Front mech is not Record, it is Nuovo Valentino, quite a bit later than cycle.

Record rear mech launched December 1963, but we do not know if it is original.

Headset either Way-Assauto or Agrati - both companies did one of this pattern.

Chainset much later than machine.

What are pedals?

One thing you could do which might advance an identification is to measure the distance between the headplate fastener holes.

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Old 05-20-19, 08:56 PM
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Thanks Aubergine That's a start !
Thanks Juvela
The brakes also fit the 60s guess they are model 51 and also date to that time . Universal brakes
The ten sided locking nut on the bottom bracket is similar to the headset .
The distance between the head badge holes is 4cm
Rear mech is stamped 13-36 on the back and catena 3/32 inside the jockey wheel cage
The pedals are Kyokuto Pro Ace with campy caps ? and Christophe toe clips match the crank I guess.
I haven't been able to find a picture of any lugs that look like these yet
Thanks again guys
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Old 05-21-19, 02:06 PM
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-----

Thank you for the additional information and imagery.

Decgonal bottom bracket lockring is one of the patterns employed by Magistroni.

Possible cups may be the Magistroni originals as well...

Evidently whoever fitted the present chainset simply reused the original BB fittings, save for the spindle of course.

Fratelli Pietra 51's were produced with both red and with blue ink.

In photo it appears there may be a tiny bit of red left in the "BREV" marking.

Because of cycle's birth time would expect red ink.

Original chainset would have been Magistroni and original pedals Sheffield.

Likely that stem, bar, brake calipers & bottom bracket cups are the original ones to the bicycle.

Weinmann brake levers must be replacements.

Possible ID: Bottecchia.

Bottecchia headplates have this two-fastener vertically arranged format.

Will measure a couple in my collection to see how they compare to your 40mm measurement.

Lugs could move the cycle back to the late 1950's.

Will report again after making some checks...

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Old 05-21-19, 02:19 PM
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Frame appears close match to this one identified as 1959 Bottecchia -

Gallery of images here:

https://photobucket.com/gallery/user...Ny5qcGc=/?ref=

Forum discussion thread here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...hia-frame.html

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Old 05-21-19, 03:51 PM
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Wow you nailed it juvela thanks so much !
Your links match except my dropouts aren't marked.


A quick search for 50s vintage Bottecchia brought up this page right here on Bike forums Vintage Bottecchia indentification help https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...html?styleid=7


The neck ,headset and lugs with the double cutout are identical as is the B on the seat tube bolt and fork and eyelets at the dropouts.


The only difference I see is the one pictured in the link appears to have a large opening at the bottom of the BB shell and mine has a welded nut like the rear of the head tube. Are those for drainage?


The repaint looks like it might have been from the 70s as the metallic brown was very popular. I can remember quite a few muscle cars painted with it. So maybe that's when the Record components were added? Would the serial number be on the BB shell ? If it is its been either filled or covered with the paint.


Any guess as to frame material ? I saw your link mentioned either Faulk or columbus. It seems very light if it dates back to the fifties or 60s. The steel has that nice high ring to it when snapping a finger nail to it. I'm happy with my mid eighties Japanese bikes at this weight. Would this make it a mid priced bike or better for that time? A


Thanks again for your help . Jim
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Old 05-21-19, 06:31 PM
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-----

Fittings on backside of head tube and bottom bracket shell are for lubrication.

Frame is likely DB Columbus - you can check the underside of fork crown to see if steerer interior exhibits rifling - rifling = Columbus tubing.

Frame likely identical of top model of the day.

We know bicycle model is one down from the top because of the Way-Assauto headset and Magistroni bottom bracket cups.

Glad to read information of assistance.

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Old 05-21-19, 06:53 PM
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Thanks again for the help you're a wealth of information
Jim
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Old 05-22-19, 01:21 PM
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-----

Addenda -

---

Headplate,

checked the several in my collection and the 40mm dimension lines right up

in case you would like to get one for the bicycle they show up on ebay fairly often ...



---

Dating -

the bicycle's Record model hubs will be marked with a date

if it is anywhere close to 1960 they are likely original to the cycle

look at the inner face of the axle locknuts:



---

the correct brake levers to go with the Universal model 51 calipers are Universal model 306:



---

cycle's Way-Assauto headset:



VeloBase.com - Component: Way Assauto (knurled on cups)

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original chainset likely Magistroni

one probable model is the L. Senior three-arm set

http://www.blackbirdsf.org/magistron...ks_senior3.jpg

Magistroni

---

original saddle likely conventional leather from Italy

two possible makers: Rosa & Italia

may have been marked with name of cycle

---

you inquired about tubing -

one simple check is to measure saddle pillar diameter - if correct for frame(!)

for Columbus SL or SP tube set one would expect a size of either 27.0mm or 27.2mm

if size smaller and pillar correct size for frame then we are likely looking at Falck tubing

---

original pedals were likely Sheffield

such a great many models were produced it makes it difficult to guess a specific one

a possible candidate might be the Corsa model nr. 613

VeloBase.com - Component: Sheffield 613 quill

---

Front mech -

depending on specific date it could have been either Gran Sport or original Record

Record launched 1959-60

---

Rear mech -

depending on specific date could have either been Gran Sport or Record

odds favour Gran Sport

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Old 05-22-19, 05:39 PM
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Hi Juvela , Thankyou.
I see your up on the hill I've probably been by your place dozens of times over the years as my folks lived in Yuba City and I'd take them over the mountain to Reno or Tahoe . That will keep you in shape riding up there.
Ok back to the bike . The rear wheel lock nut was in fact 1960 but the front was a 71. I only took one off each.
The seat post measured 26.4 -.6 so its likely 26.6 it seems to fit snugly. So I guess Falck tubing.
I cleaned the dropouts with some steel wool and they are Campagnolo some of it is worn off on all of them but enough to identify them was left. I've included a pic of the rim manufacturers sticker also or what's left of it .
Yes I've already seen a couple of the head badges on ebay as well as the decals for the downtube . It would look nice with some fresh paint and probably double its worth.
You seem to be very familiar with Italian bikes what do you think its worth as is? and would it be worth as much more with the correct parts?
Thanks


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Old 05-23-19, 12:56 PM
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-----

Not up on "that" hill - perhaps you mixed me with another member...

Regina Oro gear block a replacement. The Oro model seemed to launch ~1970 - so roughly a decade later than machine. Original block was likely a Regina however.

The Rigida model 1319 & 1320 rims launched ~1976.

Valuation - am not current on buying/selling so cannot comment.

In general it is hard to get one's money out on a conscientious restoration, even counting one's time at zero.

Most serious restorations are done by enthusiasts who wish to keep the subject machine.

Cleaning, repacking of bearings along with replacement of "consumables" such as cables, cable casing, handlebar tape, brake pads and tyres is worth it.

---

Pillar measurement note -

sounds like you measured pillar

these rolled steel sheet pillars commonly get deformed with use/misuse

wise to take reading in more than one location

a 26.4 size is quite plausible for Falck

a 26.6 size is not commonly encountered on Italian machines in my experience

when cycles get reworked or built up from a frame a slightly too small pillar is oftimes fitted because it is handy

this causes binder ears to get pinched down

if you can see any evidence of this try gently prising them open and then measuring seat tube opening

---

front hub -

quite possible it is original to cycle despite locknut date

sometimes when cones worn and/or axle bent a complete new axle set is fitted

---

should you determine to your satisfaction that frame tubing is Falck replacement transfers are available

here is one on a machine dated by its owner as 1963 -



by the end of the decade the blue and yellow F logo transfer had come into use

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Last edited by juvela; 05-24-19 at 09:39 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 05-30-19, 10:33 AM
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You were correct again on the seat post I inserted a 26.8 post I had and it was a little loose I tightened the bolt within a 16th of an inch and the post could still be moved. I tried a 27.2 after separating the clamp and it would not fit so 27 must be the magic number .
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Old 06-13-19, 10:54 AM
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Hello Jim,

Good to read your explorations moving forward

27.0mm is a DB tubing size

you can check steerer interior for riflings; rifling = Columbus

Falck also produced DB tubing

---

You inquired anent lugs -

have always assumed this pattern to be an Agrati one but have no hard information

seems to have been discontinued by the later 1960's

crown is clearly Agrati

it was employed as part of the Agrati "BRIANZA" lug set nr. 000.8030/U and is item nr. 000.8038

can be seen as part of the "BRIANZA" set in the upper left quadrant of this catalogue page

the set's pattern exhibits a bit of "family resemblance" to the one on your frame...


---

possible model name for cycle: Giro d'Italia

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Last edited by juvela; 06-13-19 at 07:41 PM. Reason: correction
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Old 06-29-19, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by juvela View Post
-----

Frame appears close match to this one identified as 1959 Bottecchia -

Gallery of images here:

https://photobucket.com/gallery/user...Ny5qcGc=/?ref=

Forum discussion thread here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...hia-frame.html

-----
Excellent sleuthing, as always!

I've never come across this type of head lugs and scratched my head at first. Then I scrolled down and saw you wrapped this one up in no time.
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Old 06-30-19, 03:58 PM
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Jim,

thought you might like to view this one for comparison.

the owner dates it as 1969.

displays same crown, ends, seat stay treatment and headset as your frame.

appears to differ soley in lug pattern.

likely also the Giro d'Italia model.










Apologies for slightly out of focus pictures. Photos not mine.

from this embaymenture listing -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bottecchia-...y/253205380692

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