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Another tire thread!? Awesome!!!!!

Old 06-10-19, 01:07 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by acidfast7 View Post
Sorry man. I like you,and have a modicum of respect for you, but your wrong.

There's already one example of an HS420 is this thread that is dead on. 39.1mm with a 40 ETRTO width rating (which is tyre width and not bead to bead width.)

My guess is that most users here are not using the ETRTO but this old system with inches or the 700c system, which is also not the same.

Several Schwalbe tyres will be 700x32c but 35-622 and will measure that size exactly. The is very true for tyres over 2 inches in width.

I think most people in this thread are incorrectly using (the needlessly unfortunately complicated) two non-interchangable measurement systems.

Thus, I challenge people to actually post the ETRTO and the actual measurement of the width with a caliper and let me know how it goes.

I will do this on the next day that I ride into work to demonstrate that Schwalbe does keep it within ±1 mm of the ETRTO.
Has anyone ever convinced you that you're wrong by saying "your wrong" or even "you're wrong?" It's not a very good argument method.

I have more experience than you do. I've fixed thousands of other people's bikes. Tire sizes vary from their ratings. This is where theory and practice diverge. Read all you want, but take measurements also.
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Old 06-10-19, 01:08 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
So manufacturers label a tire width based on a formula of bead to bead divided by 2.5?

Do you mean bead to bead when the tire is uncurled and laid flat? As in the total length of the rubber between the beads?

My mind just got blown.
Heh. That is what I read a few years ago, and the practice might have changed.
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Old 06-10-19, 07:12 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
Has anyone ever convinced you that you're wrong by saying "your wrong" or even "you're wrong?" It's not a very good argument method.

I have more experience than you do. I've fixed thousands of other people's bikes. Tire sizes vary from their ratings. This is where theory and practice diverge. Read all you want, but take measurements also.
Like I said, I like you, but I always discount everyone's advice if it doesn't come with quantifiable measurement.

So far, in this thread there is one and I plan to add some. It would be nice if others did the same for HS 420 (as that's what I'm commenting on and have commented on from the beginning compared to other people referring to decades of experience.). Not all tyres or not even all Schwalbe tyres just the HS 420, which I own.
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Old 06-10-19, 08:00 AM
  #79  
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wow, acid even managed to spread his acid to the normally placid noglider. sad.
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Old 06-10-19, 08:10 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
wow, acid even managed to spread his acid to the normally placid noglider. sad.
I think he is the reason the ignore function was created.
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Old 06-10-19, 11:40 AM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Skipjacks View Post
So manufacturers label a tire width based on a formula of bead to bead divided by 2.5?

Do you mean bead to bead when the tire is uncurled and laid flat? As in the total length of the rubber between the beads?

My mind just got blown.

I guess that kind of makes it a more neutral measurement though because it eliminates the variable of the rim width and inflation pressure.

(I still think Continental uses a broken ruler)

By the way...this is the 3rd or 4th really interesting thing I've learned about bike tires and tire manufacturing in this thread.
I'm with you (again), I had thought the width was measured at the widest part of the tire when mounted on a standard rim, and the standard for one company may not be the same as anothers (that's how they did it for automotive tires when I was in the tire business years ago). This style of measurement does make sense, and I may not have thought about it without this thread. I've been mounting thinner tires than the stock size for my bike for so long I don't even remember what it looked like with wider tires.
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Old 06-10-19, 12:27 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by no motor? View Post
I'm with you (again), I had thought the width was measured at the widest part of the tire when mounted on a standard rim, and the standard for one company may not be the same as anothers (that's how they did it for automotive tires when I was in the tire business years ago). This style of measurement does make sense, and I may not have thought about it without this thread. I've been mounting thinner tires than the stock size for my bike for so long I don't even remember what it looked like with wider tires.
Schwalbe measures exactly as you describe (at the widest part of the tyre on a rim width they deem comparable, which I posted a chart for earlier). They allow ±3 mm on the widest tyre (60mm or 2+ inches). On the smaller tyres, less than 38 or around 1.5inches that are bang on the measurement ±1 mm. These are all published (including the height of the wheel/tyre combo.)

That's why I don't understand the OP's question. Perhaps it is different for other companies. I can only speak for Schwalbe and that's all I have done in this thread. Maybe other companies have ****ty QA/QC, I don't know, but I won't be a non Schwalbe tyre again.
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Old 06-10-19, 01:09 PM
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Where's @Kojak when we need him? He used to work for one of the big bicycle tire companies and should know the answers to these questions.
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Old 06-10-19, 01:20 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by no motor? View Post
Where's @Kojak when we need him? He used to work for one of the big bicycle tire companies and should know the answers to these questions.
Schwalbe techniques for measuring are published. As they maintain the ETRTO standard practice.

I'm tight for time now (on the pot on my mobile after returning from Oxford trying to get another big deal done with a different biotech company) but when I have a sec I'll post the documents. They're from the same publication that I posted from earlier.

I'd be surprised if continental didn't do they same thing for tyres made in Germany but they may not. They're a much larger and diverse company than Schwalbe as bicycle tyres are a much smaller component of they're business. I would also wager they're on fewer bikes as OEM than Schwalbe for the EU marker (tighter tolerances are important for framebuilding factories in Taiwan.)
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Old 06-10-19, 01:39 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by no motor? View Post
Where's @Kojak when we need him? He used to work for one of the big bicycle tire companies and should know the answers to these questions.
I'll gladly ask the Michelin Man himself at this point.

Or the Goodyear Blimp pilot.

Somebody has to know this.
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Old 06-10-19, 01:40 PM
  #86  
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I'm reading through the thread, I'll chime in when I'm done....
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Old 06-10-19, 02:12 PM
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I've skimmed through thread, and now I need a drink... holy cow.

Okay, so I haven't worked for Schwalbe for a few years now but unless there has been profound changes at the company (not likely), Schwalbe internally relies solely on the ETRTO system of tire measurement. Any other measurement numbers published in the catalog or on the sides of the tires are secondary to the ETRTO #. So, a 37-622 would measure 37mm wide +/- the stated tolerance (I think 3 mm). Much of the +/- relates to the fact a given width of a tire can fit on a range of rim widths; a wider rim lets the tire sidewalls spread out a bit more producing a wider measurement when mounted.

Now, after writing this, it seems as though the need for an exact measurement has been mitigated (if the fenders have been ditched), but generally speaking if the width tolerance is 37mm max, I would not go with the 37-622 Schwalbe tire (tyre) as it might ultimately inflate up to as much as 40mm wide, and even if it maxed out at 37mm wide, a wheel that is even minutely out of true will rub.

I cannot speak for other manufacturers, they may have a different methodology for publishing tire measurements, so take my words with a grain of salt in that regard.

As for the Marathon Supreme tires, they are fantastic in terms of grip and rolling resistance. Schwalbe once made this tire in some sizes with a wire bead that made it reasonably affordable. In looking at the catalog, the wire bead version is no longer produced. It's possible that there may be some out there on the interwebs.... would be worth searching out if a grippy, fast touring tires is what you're looking for.

I hope I've helped in some way, if my post is redundant, my apologies but I started getting dizzy reading the thread.

Cheers
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Old 06-10-19, 02:19 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by Kojak View Post
I've skimmed through thread, and now I need a drink... holy cow.

Okay, so I haven't worked for Schwalbe for a few years now but unless there has been profound changes at the company (not likely), Schwalbe internally relies solely on the ETRTO system of tire measurement. Any other measurement numbers published in the catalog or on the sides of the tires are secondary to the ETRTO #. So, a 37-622 would measure 37mm wide +/- the stated tolerance (I think 3 mm). Much of the +/- relates to the fact a given width of a tire can fit on a range of rim widths; a wider rim lets the tire sidewalls spread out a bit more producing a wider measurement when mounted.

Now, after writing this, it seems as though the need for an exact measurement has been mitigated (if the fenders have been ditched), but generally speaking if the width tolerance is 37mm max, I would not go with the 37-622 Schwalbe tire (tyre) as it might ultimately inflate up to as much as 40mm wide, and even if it maxed out at 37mm wide, a wheel that is even minutely out of true will rub.

I cannot speak for other manufacturers, they may have a different methodology for publishing tire measurements, so take my words with a grain of salt in that regard.

As for the Marathon Supreme tires, they are fantastic in terms of grip and rolling resistance. Schwalbe once made this tire in some sizes with a wire bead that made it reasonably affordable. In looking at the catalog, the wire bead version is no longer produced. It's possible that there may be some out there on the interwebs.... would be worth searching out if a grippy, fast touring tires is what you're looking for.

I hope I've helped in some way, if my post is redundant, my apologies but I started getting dizzy reading the thread.

Cheers
Thank you for taking the time to read the thread and provide your input.

Have a nice evening (here) and a good rest of your week.
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Old 06-10-19, 03:39 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by Kojak View Post
I've skimmed through thread, and now I need a drink... holy cow.

Okay, so I haven't worked for Schwalbe for a few years now but unless there has been profound changes at the company (not likely), Schwalbe internally relies solely on the ETRTO system of tire measurement. Any other measurement numbers published in the catalog or on the sides of the tires are secondary to the ETRTO #. So, a 37-622 would measure 37mm wide +/- the stated tolerance (I think 3 mm). Much of the +/- relates to the fact a given width of a tire can fit on a range of rim widths; a wider rim lets the tire sidewalls spread out a bit more producing a wider measurement when mounted.

Now, after writing this, it seems as though the need for an exact measurement has been mitigated (if the fenders have been ditched), but generally speaking if the width tolerance is 37mm max, I would not go with the 37-622 Schwalbe tire (tyre) as it might ultimately inflate up to as much as 40mm wide, and even if it maxed out at 37mm wide, a wheel that is even minutely out of true will rub.

I cannot speak for other manufacturers, they may have a different methodology for publishing tire measurements, so take my words with a grain of salt in that regard.

As for the Marathon Supreme tires, they are fantastic in terms of grip and rolling resistance. Schwalbe once made this tire in some sizes with a wire bead that made it reasonably affordable. In looking at the catalog, the wire bead version is no longer produced. It's possible that there may be some out there on the interwebs.... would be worth searching out if a grippy, fast touring tires is what you're looking for.

I hope I've helped in some way, if my post is redundant, my apologies but I started getting dizzy reading the thread.

Cheers
All hail the tire god!

This could have been the most redundant post in history but its was BY FAR the most clear and specific, and with the most direct from the factory (literally) information. So I'm happy to have it!

If I got a 37mm tire that inflated up to 40mm....I'm thinking that wouldn't be a bad thing in terms of rolling resistance and overall ride comfort. (I also doubt that it would really inflate that wide since my rims aren't crazy big. I'm guessing my roughly 20 mm rims are probably close to the test size for a 37-622 tire)

I was bouncing back and forth between the Schwlb's and Continentals. But Biektiresdirect has the Schwalbe's on sale today for $32. That might tip the scales heavy in thier favor.
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Old 06-10-19, 03:40 PM
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I think you could buy a car tire for less than $80, but then it probably wouldn't fit on your bike. BTW, why are bike tires more expensive than car tires?
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Old 06-10-19, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by StillBiking@71 View Post
I think you could buy a car tire for less than $80, but then it probably wouldn't fit on your bike. BTW, why are bike tires more expensive than car tires?
Simple.

Because there is a buyer who will pay for an expensive bike tire at a price that the manufacturer can be profitable at.

There are also bikes that cost more than some cars.
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Old 06-10-19, 03:52 PM
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Not sure that I have a good answer for that other than possibly sales volume.

I guess the other answer is, technically they aren't. Sure, you can source a very high end bicycle tire and then the least expensive automotive tire and the bicycle tire is going to be more expensive. But, having just bought within the past year, 4 new tires for our family vehicle, the bill was over $1,000 for 4 Continental tires, not anything spectacular performance-wise, just a solid set of tires.

Schwalbe does produce a 700x28 (28-622) road tire that retails for $18US. I'm not sure you could find any reasonably worthwhile automotive tire for anything close to that.

Last edited by Kojak; 06-10-19 at 03:58 PM.
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Old 06-10-19, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Kojak View Post
Not sure that I have a good answer for that other than possibly sales volume.

I guess the other answer is, technically they aren't. Sure, you can source a very high end bicycle tire and then the least expensive automotive tire and the bicycle tire is going to be more expensive. But, having just bought within the past year, 4 new tires for our family vehicle, the bill was over $1,000 for 4 Continental tires, not anything spectacular performance-wise, just a solid set of tires.

Schwalbe does produce a 700x28 (28-622) road tire that retails for $18US. I'm not sure you could find any reasonably worthwhile automotive tire for anything close to that.
I see the original Marathons over here for around £15. Good pricepoint but wish the treadwear was better.
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Old 06-10-19, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kojak View Post
As for the Marathon Supreme tires, they are fantastic in terms of grip and rolling resistance. Schwalbe once made this tire in some sizes with a wire bead that made it reasonably affordable.
My parents bought a pair of (probably pretty cheap) folders, and I was surprised that they came stock with 20-inch Marathon Supremes. Maybe they're wire-bead, I haven't had to find out yet.
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Old 06-10-19, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kojak View Post
I've skimmed through thread, and now I need a drink... holy cow.
.......
I hope I've helped in some way, if my post is redundant, my apologies but I started getting dizzy reading the thread.

Cheers
I think we all could use one, this could rival the chain lube/helmet discussions if it lasts much longer. Hope I didn't cause you too much aggravation.
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Old 06-11-19, 12:16 AM
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@acidfast7, Is that a fixie, or just a single speed?

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Old 06-11-19, 02:05 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by Kojak View Post
@acidfast7, Is that a fixie, or just a single speed?
Always ridden in SS mode. I'm assuming you're asking due to the treadwear?

I'm 188cm/80kg (6'2" / 175#), so I'm not that heavy.

I really think it is the poor UK road surface as they're much worse than when I commuted in the US (ME/MA/NY/FL/TX), Copenhagen, Frankfurt or Stockholm. Tiny stones with no surface protection. Really does a number on tyres.

I also had a SCHWALBE Luagno split it half after about 200 miles. Literally broke across the tyre (almost like at a joining seam) ... felt kind of cheap anyway.

Went on here: https://www.bikeforums.net/16634158-post547.html

Came off here with a full refund:

https://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=16752487&postcount=587

made it 191 km and I put a gatorskin on, which was double the price. Halfords didn't have any Marathons in stock on that day.

That wore through the sidewall (this seems to be common) at a little under 2000 km.

The Marathon has been a decent tyre for the price, I just expected more out of the treadwear. Otherwise, it's been great and I'll continue to use them as I have them on my bikes in Munich, Budapest and Copenhagen.

I should say that glass protections has been phenomenal. I have at least five deep gashes that show the GG when pinched like in that photo. Banger of a deal for £15.

Last edited by acidfast7; 06-11-19 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 06-11-19, 02:10 AM
  #98  
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Also, I have a friend at Wiggle.com and they bought bike24.de and stated that they have no more Marathons (original) in 23-622, which is a shame. They said the whole tyre market follows the pros that have moved to 25-/28- and 23-622 isn't common at all any longer?

Is that what you see?
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Old 06-11-19, 09:23 AM
  #99  
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lol the commuter's longstanding claim that wider/softer is better is finally the latest fad of the weight weenies
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Old 06-11-19, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
lol the commuter's longstanding claim that wider/softer is better is finally the latest fad of the weight weenies
The original marathon is pretty much impossible to get in 23-622 any longer :/
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