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Old 11-10-18, 02:15 PM
  #2201  
700wheel
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The gift of losing:
0.490 Seconds. ? ALP Cycles Coaching
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Old 11-15-18, 04:50 AM
  #2202  
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Now you can buy (if you're in the UK at least) the chain GB used at the Rio Olympics... I'm as big of an efficiency nerd as you'll find, but even I raised an eyebrow reading this

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...t-cheap-400017
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Old 11-15-18, 09:58 AM
  #2203  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Now you can buy (if you're in the UK at least) the chain GB used at the Rio Olympics... I'm as big of an efficiency nerd as you'll find, but even I raised an eyebrow reading this

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/p...t-cheap-400017
Or you could duplicate Wiggins and use a $7,800 chain (source: My Hour by Wiggins, page 53).
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Old 11-15-18, 11:50 AM
  #2204  
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Am I missing something here?

Are these chains significantly (or even moderately) better than a high quality, off-the-rack, properly lubricated, properly tensioned, un-stretched chain? Like the Izumi ECO or Super Toughness.

Anyone got any info that's not marketing material?
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Old 11-15-18, 12:47 PM
  #2205  
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It's tough to test at home... or small scale at all. Enough time and you might tease it out like folks do with crr on tyres, but it'd be a task looking for such small % without proper equipment.

There is some % to be saved for sure. How much would depend on so many factors it'd be tough to put into cohesion. As ^700w alluded to, Wiggins Hour Record chain was the "best" of a bunch of (already high end) chains that were tested (there's variance in each chain from manufacturing)

If you were very interested in removing as much chain friction as possible, you'd buy an 11 speed Dura Ace chain, have it stripped and treated (lots of different ways to do it... I've never seen anything that was demonstrably better than the old Speed Wax recipe - cheap too!) and run the biggest chainring/cog combo you could. All 3/32 of course.
Hard to say what the difference between that and an Izumi would be... I don't know any tests that have been done on popular 1/8 chains. My guess is there is a fair gain there though... a watt?
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Old 11-15-18, 02:15 PM
  #2206  
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Well, if anyone else wants to buy an extra watt, I’m available to scream bloody murder at you as you pass by every lap of your big event, or I could whisper motivational phrases in your ear in the infield (whatever floats your boat)...for $7,800
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Old 11-15-18, 03:07 PM
  #2207  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Well, if anyone else wants to buy an extra watt, I’m available to scream bloody murder at you as you pass by every lap of your big event, or I could whisper motivational phrases in your ear in the infield (whatever floats your boat)...for $7,800
I've been trying to sell myself as a personal "hype man" for years. There's got to be a market! All we need is a half hearted "study" showing a small improvement and people will eat it up!
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Old 11-15-18, 08:08 PM
  #2208  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
It's tough to test at home... or small scale at all. Enough time and you might tease it out like folks do with crr on tyres, but it'd be a task looking for such small % without proper equipment.

There is some % to be saved for sure. How much would depend on so many factors it'd be tough to put into cohesion. As ^700w alluded to, Wiggins Hour Record chain was the "best" of a bunch of (already high end) chains that were tested (there's variance in each chain from manufacturing)

If you were very interested in removing as much chain friction as possible, you'd buy an 11 speed Dura Ace chain, have it stripped and treated (lots of different ways to do it... I've never seen anything that was demonstrably better than the old Speed Wax recipe - cheap too!) and run the biggest chainring/cog combo you could. All 3/32 of course.
Hard to say what the difference between that and an Izumi would be... I don't know any tests that have been done on popular 1/8 chains. My guess is there is a fair gain there though... a watt?
I'm going to guess that there's more than 1w to be gained with the right chain -- if I recall there was a significant difference between 105? and Dura Ace chains in a Velo News test several years back. Wiggins, Pierce, and Van Houweling all used a super narrow Dura Ace bushingless chain manufactured by Izumi. The problem with the Dura Ace is that the bushingless design makes it easier to ship the chain in a mass start race. Many enduros are following the trend and running 3/32 and Izumi will be making a more advanced 3/32 chain this winter, will probably make an even faster chain next year in both 1/8 and 3/32.

Last edited by tobukog; 11-15-18 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 11-16-18, 03:24 AM
  #2209  
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There may be more than a watt... But compared to what? The very best 1/8 chain you can make /buy vs the best dura ace chain... I'm sure there's a difference, but slick drivetrain are already nearly 97-8%efficient, so there aren't big watt jumps from great to the best. Imo of course
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Old 11-16-18, 06:18 AM
  #2210  
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Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
There may be more than a watt... But compared to what? The very best 1/8 chain you can make /buy vs the best dura ace chain... I'm sure there's a difference, but slick drivetrain are already nearly 97-8%efficient, so there aren't big watt jumps from great to the best. Imo of course
You might be right. But I think when VeloNews did their test there was a 5w? difference between the 105 and Dura Ace. Maybe I'm misremembering. Some people are now thinking that the current bushing type chain design inherently has more friction than bushingless road chains.
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Old 11-16-18, 06:27 AM
  #2211  
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^ definitely possible. The difference between 105 and DA is big though. For trackies the problem is whether 1/8 is inherently worse than 3/32, or just that the 1/8 we have (which are generally marketed towards "tough" "unbreakable" etc) are worse. Without someone throwing them on the frictionfacts machine (or similar) it's just so tough to guess what starting place the 1/8 chain is at to then compare it to the DA chain. 5 watts is definitely possible in the drivetrain, no arguing that, I'm just hesitant to say there's that much difference between the "best" (whatever that is) 1/8 to a 3/32 DA chain. I have no doubt there is *some* difference though. It would be a fun test/project to build the ultimate enduro 1/8 chain.

*If anyone has a good test protocol and wants to try some high end 1/8 chains I've got
-Izumi (silver) chains - 1 waxed, 1 waxed + additives
-KMC 710sl - waxed + additives (that's the chain a lot of the uk guys - aerocoach,etc use)
-Izumi Super Toughness prototype from Premier Bicycles (triathlon bike manufacturer) which has been stripped/polished/coated

Last edited by Morelock; 11-16-18 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 11-16-18, 07:21 PM
  #2212  
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ASE files for chapter 11

https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/new...kruptcy_481472

I wonder if this will end up causing problems for some of the brands down the road. Maybe Fuji might be in trouble.
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Old 11-17-18, 12:42 AM
  #2213  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
ASE files for chapter 11

https://www.velonews.com/2018/11/new...kruptcy_481472

I wonder if this will end up causing problems for some of the brands down the road. Maybe Fuji might be in trouble.
It involves probably everyone in the bike business.

Advanced Sports Enterprises (ASE), the parent company of retail chain Performance Bicycle, as well as bike brands Fuji, Kestrel, and Breezer Bikes, has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the company confirmed Friday.

ASE was formed in August 2016 when Advanced Sports International merged with Performance Bicycle. The company also owns Bike Nashbar, SE, and Tuesday Cycles
Trying to offer a potential reason without getting into politics:

Sep 19, 2018:
[a certain President of the United States] approved import tariffs on 200 billion dollars worth of Chinese imports including $1 billion in goods in bicycle parts and components.
https://mbaction.com/trump-approves-...ycle-products/

Chapter 11 vs Chapter 7
:

When a business is unable to service its debt or pay its creditors, the business or its creditors can file with a federal bankruptcy court for protection under either Chapter 7 or Chapter 11.

In Chapter 7, the business ceases operations, a trustee sells all of its assets, and then distributes the proceeds to its creditors. Any residual amount is returned to the owners of the company.

In Chapter 11, in most instances the debtor remains in control of its business operations as a debtor in possession, and is subject to the oversight and jurisdiction of the court.
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Old 11-17-18, 12:46 AM
  #2214  
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More:

[a certain President of the United States] ’s Tariffs on China Bike Imports Brings ‘Devastation to U.S. Industry’

WASHINGTON, USA – The by [a certain President of the United States] triggered trade war with China has led the United States to charge the import of regular bicycles as well as electric bikes and bike products from China with a 25 percent tariff. This comes on top of the regular 11 percent import duty (on ordinary bicycles) resulting in a total import tax rate of 36 percent. According to the country’s biggest bicycle importer – Huffy Corporation – it will have devastating impact on bike sales and it will devastate the American bicycle industry.

[a certain President of the United States] ’s Tariffs on China Bike Imports Brings ‘Devastation to U.S. Industry’ According to Huffy, U.S. biggest bicycle importer, Trump tariffs will have ‘devastating’ impact on bike sales.

The United States started to impose the 25 percent tariff on all bicycles imported from China on August 23. Earlier, at the public consultation rounds, Huffy’s President and CEO Bill Smith said in his comments to the U.S. Trade Representative “The tariff solves no problems. It only creates problems.” In particular as it brings serious disruptions to the current world trade in bikes and parts. That comes with the huge import volume in bicycles the Unites States annually imports from China.
https://www.bike-eu.com/sales-trends...ustry-10134414
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Old 11-17-18, 12:48 AM
  #2215  
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Profit margins in the bike game are already very, very slim compared to other retail markets (electronics, clothing, etc...). So, a 25% tariff is a death knell.

If Performance can't hang, what of the local bike shops?
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Old 11-17-18, 02:26 AM
  #2216  
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Tariffs had nothing to do with this. Those articles are old and outdated - the second one is pure propaganda from Huffy trying to angle into government assistance as was provided to soybean farmers. US Dept of Ag announced tariff related assistance literally one day before that article was published: Link

This quote is also wrong:
The United States started to impose the 25 percent tariff on all bicycles imported from China on August 23.
The tariffs were set at 10% in September 2018 and are to increase to 25% in January 2019: Link

RENO, Nev. (BRAIN) — President Donald Trump on Monday said he had approved tariffs on roughly $200 billion of imports from China, including about $1 billion in bicycle products.

In a statement, Trump said the tariffs will take effect on Sept. 24, at 10 percent until the end of the year, when they will rise to 25 percent. These tariffs are on top of current duties on bike imports.
It's still to early to tell the impact of tariffs on bike sales but I did find this article from last week interesting. Once we see the report from BRAIN in December we'll know more but I wouldn't be surprised to see strong economy, continued pre-tariff boom and longer milder warm season mask any negative effects. Once the 25% hit happens in January I'd be more inclined to look to tariffs but even then might be too early depending on if China continues to both openly and clandestinely provide subsidies to major exporters to cover losses and allow manufacturers to preserve their export prices coming into the major shipping season for Spring in the US: Link

"Imports have usually dropped off significantly by this time of year, but we're still seeing numbers that could have set records in the past," said Jonathan Gold, the NRF's vice president for supply chain and customs policy. "Part of this is driven by consumer demand in the strong economy, but retailers also know that tariffs on the latest round of goods are set to more than double in just a few weeks. If there are shipments that can be moved up, it makes sense to do that before the price goes up."

"President Trump's trade war with China and the threat of even higher tariffs in 2019 have created a mini-boom in imports, and businesses have rushed to bring goods into the country ahead of the tariffs," said Ben Hackett, the founder of Hackett Associates. "We are clearly in a politically motivated trade environment."
There are much greater issues at the Performance retail level that caused this. This article does a much better job of providing an explanation: Link

Patrick Cunnane, the CEO of ASE, said the ASI distribution business is profitable but the company was unable to turn around the retail business, which has seen sales declines for the last six years.

"We were undercapitalized from the start," he told BRAIN. "We bought (Performance) because two years ago Performance was heavily in debt to ASI. If Performance had failed then, ASI would have failed. So we would have been in this same position but two years ago."
He said that under the current store leases, 40 locations are unprofitable and are set to be closed. But Cunnane said leases on some of those stores could be renegotiated to make the stores profitable and more likely to stay open.
IMO Performance retail has always been weaker than their competitors. I worked in multiple Southeast stores and by and large the sales/buying experience favors a specific type of buyer - new road bicycle enthusiast - almost to the exclusion of all other types. Performance squeezes their customer up front and then they go somewhere else. The heavy sales focus often drives out quality mechanics and managers. The vast majority of labor was provided to customers who either bought their bike from Performance and paid significantly discounted rates, or to one-time customers who took their bike somewhere else after experiencing the off-putting heavy up-sell process to get their bike fixed. Their inventory is often weird and they lack stock for most small items - exactly the opposite of what one would expect. It wasn't unusual for me to see multiple stores that stocked several sets of the awful Forte 20/24 aero wheelsets but had no 90mm stems in stock. Or an endless variety of 25.4 threadless stems but nothing in 31.8. Lots of issues that drive buyers online, where they stay except for emergency purchases - which doesn't sustain retail outlets in high rent areas. The Performance location model is another issue, all their stores are in locations that are almost impossible to ride a bike to but are easily accessed by car. By design they are near malls and shopping centers, areas with high rent but without the full spectrum of products to draw walk-in customers like REI.

This is to say nothing of their department store pricing model, a huge issue itself. They also missed the boat on gravel and adventure trends despite being positioned to come to market earlier than all their competitors. I wrote several reports on their failings in the 2012-2014 time frame but had essentially no effect on changing business practices. I wouldn't be surprised if they are either acquired by a multinational that completely revamps the retail model or a acquisition firm that saddles them with other debt and drives them out of business completely.

If Performance can't hang, what of the local bike shops?
I don't think the issues with Performance have much relevance to the LBS, in this specific instance. And really closing 40 stores is going to drive a fair chunk of business to LBS, I suspect a great portion will go to REI as they are often much closer to each other than to an LBS but still would expect to see a lot of customers convert to their LBS.
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Old 11-17-18, 06:50 AM
  #2217  
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Old 11-17-18, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
New Bridgestone track frame?
Yep. The national team has been using them at the World Cups. Hoping to see one in person relatively soon, will post pics if that happens.
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Old 11-17-18, 09:07 AM
  #2219  
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@Spoonrobot, these issues that we both mention are not mutually-exclusive.




Originally Posted by gycho77 View Post
That's interesting!

Integrated seat mast...

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Old 11-17-18, 11:29 AM
  #2220  
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
I don't think the issues with Performance have much relevance to the LBS, in this specific instance. And really closing 40 stores is going to drive a fair chunk of business to LBS, I suspect a great portion will go to REI as they are often much closer to each other than to an LBS but still would expect to see a lot of customers convert to their LBS.
Interesting analysis. Your comments confirm the odd vibe I get from the Seattle store. All bikes and very little of anything else. A couple years back they consolidated the store to a smaller footprint and the repair shop suffered the most while all the racks of bikes stayed. And bikes there were perpetually 'on sale'. Other shops in the area (and there are many) seem to be reducing bike inventory and focusing on customer service instead. And then there is REI.

Too bad. I remember they and Nashbar being my favorite mail-order stores (pre-internet) BITD and I actually was excited to shop at the Chapel Hill store on a visit to the area.

Edit: Looks like the Seattle store didn't make the cut:

https://www.performancebike.com/shop/free-shipping

Last edited by gl98115; 11-17-18 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 11-17-18, 01:25 PM
  #2221  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
@Spoonrobot, these issues that we both mention are not mutually-exclusive.






That's interesting!

Integrated seat mast...

it looks like Look R96 with shorter dropout and better fork
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Old 11-17-18, 04:06 PM
  #2222  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
@Spoonrobot, these issues that we both mention are not mutually-exclusive.
True, but if you read the article that @Spoonrobot linked you find that Performance was headed to bankruptcy years ago and there is no mention of the current and future tariffs. It would have been easy for the CEO to blame the gov't for their problems, but he didn't.

https://www.bicycleretailer.com/indu...ile-chapter-11
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Old 11-17-18, 05:12 PM
  #2223  
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Not necessarily related to Performance, but most of us are going to feel some effect from the tariffs. Business doesn't like uncertainty, and even the threat of tariffs in the bicycle industry makes it difficult for companies which are dependent on production or materials from International sources to confidently plan for the future. For myself, the team that I ride for lost a primary sponsor because they just couldn't determine if they could afford to continue sponsorship in the current climate of uncertainty.
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Old 11-17-18, 05:49 PM
  #2224  
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The UCI has updated the rules for aerobars:

"...….the UCI also further refined the rules for time trial bikes, specifying the arm extensions for road time trial and track pursuit bikes must be in two parts, and there can only be elbow rests if there are also extensions. The rest can be only 12.5cm wide or long, and can only incline 15 degrees. There can only be a 10cm rise or drop between the elbow rest and the end of the extensions."

Source: UCI adds sock height, aero fabric regulations to 2019 rulebook | Cyclingnews.com


What does "two parts" mean? My aerobars contain eight parts excluding screws and bar tape (if they mean two assemblies then mine comply).
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Old 11-17-18, 07:08 PM
  #2225  
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Originally Posted by 700wheel View Post
The UCI has updated the rules for aerobars:

"...….the UCI also further refined the rules for time trial bikes, specifying the arm extensions for road time trial and track pursuit bikes must be in two parts, and there can only be elbow rests if there are also extensions. The rest can be only 12.5cm wide or long, and can only incline 15 degrees. There can only be a 10cm rise or drop between the elbow rest and the end of the extensions."

Source: UCI adds sock height, aero fabric regulations to 2019 rulebook | Cyclingnews.com


What does "two parts" mean? My aerobars contain eight parts excluding screws and bar tape (if they mean two assemblies then mine comply).
I think they’re referring to the bars that connect at the handhold end, and bars like a set of Dedas that I used to have that had a single mount and came out and separated to 2 handholds

[img]blob:https://www.bikeforums.net/7bc79fed-0b96-46f1-8c61-1beea914a9ec[/img]
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