Yep

Incorrect. It's cheating because you had an unfair advantage over your non-cheating competitors.

jsutkeepspining

Junior gears are just a uci rule, so it applies to all races. Trust me, junior gears is one of the greatest training tools possible for a kid. I used to hate them, until i swapped to senior gears and realized how much being limited had taught me/improved my form.

Hermes

Securely attached is not glue. In fact, I have a lot of experience with 3M glue and without pins the corners can peal up.

jsutkeepspining

I just don't get why you wouldn't just pin it as well. It saves a potential headache from getting yelled at by the ref. remember you're never above the rule, no matter how much of a hot shot you think you are.

gsteinb

I've had my kid give points back on a test that weren't correct. I wouldn't even have to tell him to do it now. He just would. Statistically speaking your kid isn't likely to go anywhere in this sport. Why? Well no one does. There are dozen guys or so who can compete on the world stage. For the overwhelming majority of people you're out there learning to try your very best, build character and discipline, learn to be in relationship with others, and for some slim group of people make eventual career connections. 'They didn't catch me' is the very logic Armstrong through around over the entire course of his career. So is it cheating to get away with a rollout? It's an unnecessary word, but surely it's wrong. Just like going over the yellow line, whether it's enforced or not.

hack

Pretty much this^ If you break the rules knowingly or unknowingly and you do or do not get caught, you are still breaking the rules. If you're doing it knowingly, you're cheating, even if the official kind of looks the other way.

Doge

That "unfair" determination is one for the referee's, not the rider.

There are many and always times where riders try to gain an advantage from pushing the bounds of the rules. When I raced we had to wear black shorts and socks (I think white). Some track types would paint socks on their ankles. The officials saw this, and allowed it. It was an advantage and deemed by the officials to be fair. The sport and the rules evolved from there.

Doge

That is not what I posted about.
I posted about unknowingly clearly breaking the rules (gearing)
AND
Pushing the bounds of a rule with official consent.
So firmly attaching a number without pins. Painted socks - stuff that is NOT hidden.

jsutkeepspining

I have a theory. Rules are rules, follow them. Not trying to be mean, but arguing that it doesn't matter if you don't get caught is silly. That's like arguing that I can go and steal a sandwich at the local deli because they wont notice.

You come as the type of guy who fews himself and his kid above everything. You're kid might be relatively fast, but that doesn't mean much on the national level. There are tons of kids who are just as fast, if not faster than your kid. Do not think that he is above rules, just follow them and you'll have less headaches.

hack

Sorry, wasn't directly directed at you, but more my thoughts on the issue. Rules are out there and should be followed...that's my take. However, if you unknowingly break a rule and realize it after the fact, the response (forfeit, inform official, whatever) is a personal one.

Also, taking advantage of a rule ambiguity is different than applying an individual interpretation of an unclear rule. For example, re: pins vs glue...I've always seen officials require pins, but I truly don't know what the spirit of the rule is. My assumption is that the spirit is the numbers should stay on so the rider can be identified as easily as possible. So, if the rule does not say pins are required, then I suppose you are not violating a rule. You're also gaining no real advantage (aside from the drag associated with four safety pins) by gluing w/o pins.

gsteinb

oh dude, you're missing the point. USAC is in cahoots with the pin lobby. It's all back room deals.

Doge

Say your kid is reviewing last year's math test sees he was given a correct answer on a question on the test where he was off a decimal point. Bumped him to an A. Semester is over/closed and he graduated and accepted to a prestigious university likely help by that A.

Did he cheat - no. Was it a lapse in character - no. Did he deserve the grade - no. If asked should he tell the truth about it - yes. Should he call admin and try and get it corrected - no.

hack

it must be ... i've got more pins at home now than i could ever need. i need to start taking them with me and reusing them at races.

Doge

I really can't see where that came from. I'm an advocate of following all rules.

However like the OP - some rule breaking is unavoidable and when it can't be avoided and the officials know - its not cheating. When a rule is broken by 100% of the participants I wouldn't call it cheating either.

gsteinb

your need to find loop holes in extreme examples tell the tale.

Doge

Be specific then to my example rather than talking about your kid's test.

2 weeks after a TT I find the wrong cassette on the wheel. What is the right thing to do?

It was a P1/2 TT category. There was no money. If it was published as a junior record we would say it wasn't. Its not. They have not even posted results to USA cycling. What would YOU do?

globecanvas

Rule 1J7 also says " Riders shall place their numbers as prescribed by the Race Director or officials" and "Numbers may not be folded, trimmed, or otherwise defaced." As I'm sure you have observed, many race guides specifically say not to crinkle the numbers. So, that's the rule. Why break it?

Regardless of the rule, I think it's weak to crinkle the numbers, but that's just my opinion. Sorry to pile on, but you did bring it up.

gsteinb

'I/you made a mistake, and you probably should have been DQed/would have been DQed in many circumstances'

with that I'm out.

mattm

Isn't that what Lance et al said about doping?

To me there isn't as much nuance around cheating; you either are or you aren't.

Sure untoward things can happen on the backside of a crit course that no official will see (taking hands off bars to push people, etc), but that's different than planning ahead to break a rule.

Ygduf

reported!


*I put my joking reply in before I saw anyone else was all up in your ****. For unintentional rule-breaking on minor stuff like that which doesn't really have an impact on the race, go by the NBA adage of "no whistle, no foul."

gsteinb

I beat you to that lance analogy buddy. 6 people on this page said the same thing about rules being rules. agreed with the lack of nuance.

mattm

Sorry.

gsteinb

haha. I really didn't mean it that way at all.

Doge

No issue. Why/how was the rule broken? I used it as an example. The circled numbers are pre-crinkled, then flattened and then glued and don't have pins. I actually find them easier to read and in this picture - that was my job.


Another example.

Doge

Pretty much agree on that - except we all know that and it doesn't need to be discussed. FWIW - we don't argue when the ref gets it wrong unless we can prove the ref wrong and never after the awards. Just race another day.
The worst thing about races is this 15 min protest we allow. I would prefer the refs call it and its final.