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BBSO2 Cassette advice w/Cyclone upgrade coming

Old 12-17-20, 07:28 PM
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TRIBUNAL
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BBSO2 Cassette advice w/Cyclone upgrade coming

I am a noob and I know very little so any advice is helpfull
So I have a bbsO2 Motor on my surley krampus 11-42 cassette. The offset of the chain is pretty bad on the two largest gears and basically I can't use them or they get bent and chains break.
I want to install a new cassette with the biggest granny gear I can get and use spacers to bring the cassette out a little from the spokes. This will straighten out my chain offset a little bit. I plan to get a cyclone motor soon so I want this issue resolved before I do that. I also want to enjoy the BBSO2 until then. The problem im having is the motors getting too hot with the smaller gears, im pushing the limits here i know.
I see the 8 and 9 speed will fit fine on the hub with a spacer, 1.85mm spacer, The 10 speed apparently has cogs closer together, so it's smaller and needs an additional 1mm spacer. The more spacers the better im thinking, so a 10speed is the way to go right? I know 1mm isn't much but im thinking every mm helps.
I also want a nice strong cassette that can handle the power to come
Will I need a new derailleur?
Thanks for any help
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Old 12-17-20, 08:14 PM
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10 speed requires a separate derailleur and shifter. I built a 11-17-28 (individual gears) rear cassette with 8-speed spacing and moved to the far end of the hub so the chainline was straight. The system functioned well since the BBS02 had adequate power with those gears. Perhaps you can try to develop something similar.
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Old 12-18-20, 11:24 AM
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I was originally hoping what you did was possible. How did you space it out? I'd love something close to that but with a 52t as the biggest. If I do this, will it work with a big size difference from one gear to the next, or do they have to be within a certain limit? Is there a guide posted on building a custom cassette you would reccomend?
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Old 12-18-20, 12:05 PM
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Shifter and rear derailleur need to match the number of cogs on the cassette. You're better off getting a smaller front chainring.
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Old 12-18-20, 04:16 PM
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The chainring is as small as it can fit, 30t, so I'll have to get a shifter and derailleur i guess.
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Old 12-18-20, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TRIBUNAL View Post
I was originally hoping what you did was possible. How did you space it out? I'd love something close to that but with a 52t as the biggest. If I do this, will it work with a big size difference from one gear to the next, or do they have to be within a certain limit? Is there a guide posted on building a custom cassette you would reccomend?
No guide, but probably some info (check Sheldon Brown). I tried the specific combination and it worked fine. Probably 8 - 10 tooth difference is manageable, but the max. The positive aspect for me was the 17 was in a straight line with the chainring, so each gear was only one "click" away. I just used 8-speed spacers whatever their width is, and corresponding derailleur and shifter which were inexpensive and durable.
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Old 12-19-20, 12:56 PM
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Why did you choose 8 speed spacing for your 3 speed cassette? Is this what you would recommend if I go with a 6 speed setup?
I was hoping I could just find a seller to sell me specific new preferably high strength cogs/gears but I cant find larger ones anywhere, only the smallest seem to be available.
I guess my only option is to buy a new cassette and open it up. My old cassette has a couple of gears that have bent a few times so i don't want to reuse them, the rest could be used as well, im not positive of the tooth breakdown on the one i have. I found this cassette that could work: https://www.amazon.com/CYSKY-Cassett...8401892&sr=8-1
11 Speed Cassette 11x50: 11-13-15-17-21-24-28-32-36-42-50T
I'm thinking a nice selection would be: 6-Speed 11-17-24-32-42-50T
I could probably eliminate the 11t cog and make it 5 speed as an option too, I'm sure 17t isn't bad for speed.
I also saw this cassette, https://www.amazon.com/BOLANY-8-9-10...92&sr=8-3&th=1
10 speed 11-50T :11-13-16-20-24-28-32-36-42-50T
I was thinking 6 speed: 6-Speed 13-20-28-36-42-50T
This is a nice one too, 11 speed: https://www.amazon.com/Bibike-Casset...8401892&sr=8-4
11-13-16-20-24-28-32-36-40-46-52T
6 speed: 16-24-32-40-46-52T

I don't see nearly as many options for derailleur's with 5 and 6 speeds as I do for 8-11 speeds.
I'm ready to pull the trigger on this cassette so would this be a good option in your opinion?
So i need a 6 speed derailleur right?

Last edited by TRIBUNAL; 12-19-20 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 12-19-20, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by TRIBUNAL View Post
The chainring is as small as it can fit, 30t, so I'll have to get a shifter and derailleur i guess.
Why go with such a small chainring? Youíll spin out way before your bike reaches any decent cruising speed even on the 11T cog.
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Old 12-19-20, 03:50 PM
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I chose 8-speed because it seemed (to me) the chain would be stronger, the parts were inexpensive and the range was all that was necessary with the motor. You must be trying to climb walls with that gearing. I thought some of the hills in socal were pretty steep (up to 40%) and this system is adequate for those. Be really careful with your selection of derailleur since many may not be able to accommodate the larger gears. You may need an 11 or 12 speed derailleur with a long cage. I haven't explored this; you might ask the question in Bicycle Mechanics, just don't mention it's for an "e" system.

Last edited by 2old; 12-19-20 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 12-19-20, 05:00 PM
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Well Im using it to climb mountains and im 350lbs, well a bit less now. I haven't really use the bike much on the road. The grade on antero road in Colorado was 11% in most spots, more in others, and it was not a road at all, just a path made entirely of rocks. I had to pedal lightly the entire time and get off and walk about 1/4 of the way to make it work, but Im stuck using the third largest rear gear because the chain offset is too great. It took me 4 hours to get about 4.5 miles up the road/mountains at about 12500 feet. It was worth every minute but at that rate i had to turn around because it was getting late, I was also almost up to the part where it was blocked by snow. I am currently using the bike around Socal up by palomar mountain where im having difficulty. The grade isnt bad in most spots, when it gets to be too much I get off and walk, the road is good, but the motor isn't handling the load well and its heating up after 10 mins of full throttle. I wrote to bafang and the tech guys advised me the best solution was to not use it uphill..... helpful... lol.
I think the motor would work great if i didn't weigh so much, working on it though. My plan is to use the bafang for now and get my gears set up nice. In a couple of months I want to install a cyclone motor. Im thinking i'll keep the bafang and put it on a cheaper Walmart bike that someone can use to ride with me when the fam visits or I just have a friend, or date who wants to ride with. I'd love to share the experience with friends and whatnot. As I am waiting for parts from china, a new motor core because my hall sensors just died, im thinking a backup wouldn't be bad to have.
Thanks for the advice

Last edited by TRIBUNAL; 12-19-20 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 12-19-20, 05:05 PM
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Antero


Antero "Road"
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Old 12-19-20, 08:51 PM
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Wonder whether on that kind of terrain you might be better off with dual hub drives — That’s what Grin Technologies recommends for heavy loads up hills:

Dual Hub Motors

“Dual front/rear hub motors on a bike is an excellent way to achieve higher power levels than a single hub motor can produce, and is especially useful in cargo bike or load hauling applications. When you run two brushless motor systems on the bike, each motor requires it's own motor controller (there is no way around this) but the throttle signal would typically be split to run both motors equally. For controllers running with our new WP8 Cycle Analyst plug, we have a very convenient dual controller splitter cable. For older controllers with the 6-pin CA plug, or generic controllers with no CA plug, you can run two motors with a V3 CA3-DPS device using the dual motor CA shunt, while for those without a CA we have a simpler dual controller throttle splitter cable for the same purpose.

“Most often you would use matching motors for the front and rear, ex dual eZee motors, dual Crystalyte, dual 9C, and the power would always be split 50:50 between the two motors. However, there are cases where running different motors makes sense too. A popular one would be a rear eZee motor and a front direct drive like the Grin All Axle. The eZee motor would do much of the grunt of the work on steep hill climbs and the likes, while the direct drive motor provides regenerative braking and runs at good efficiency when riding on the flats.”

I’m using just a pair of Bafang 500W hub motors and 52V Luna DireWolf packs on my e-cumbent cargo bike and can easily conquer the steepest grades in the Hudson Valley on the 39T ring and 28T cog when the bike is fully loaded. Am not generally off-roading though until I come home and have to ascend my loose pack gravel driveway then make it around the grassy knoll upon which my house is perched to get to my own apartment’s entrance on the second floor. Would skid out on just a single hub drive.





Hope the new installation works out well for you TRIBUNAL.

Last edited by andychrist; 12-19-20 at 08:54 PM.
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Old 12-19-20, 11:19 PM
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TRIBUNAL, great pictures and good luck. I'm 180 so not nearly as much for the motor to overcome.
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Old 12-21-20, 12:36 PM
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Wow, interesting question.

So, you want to go steep and heavy, and 1:1 gearing 30tx32t doesn't give you enough power?

It depends on the cassette, but a lot I see have maybe the first 3-4 smallest cogs removable, while the large ones are fixed in place and not removable (not always the case, but that is typical). If you do go that way and make a 6 speed, one option to look at is the "single speed conversion kits" as they allow you to place your cog(s) anywhere on the cassette you want (outboard for you) - they have a ring that bolts onto the cassette to hold it in place.

As for derailer - you need one with a long cage (you can convert short cages to long fairly easy) if you want extra large cogs. To some degree, you can limit the movement of a derailer to (theoretically) only allow an 8 speed to reach 6 of the speeds. I'm not sure if there is enough adjustment to go as far as you want though. I've gone one, but never two.
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Old 12-21-20, 04:01 PM
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Thanks
I read the rivets can be ground down to take apart cassettes and they're not necessary. Im hoping the one I ordered will come apart without a problem. I decided the setup i am going with will be 11-21-28-36-42-50
I have to find a long cage derailleur that can handle a 50t. To be honest 50t might not even be necessary and may be too big to be useful, but Im wanting to really get rid of this heat issue and they say if the motor runs faster it should run cooler.
Thank for the info on the derailleur, I was going to try using my 11 speed one and letting out the slack on the shift cable as I think that limits how far it will go. I know the one I have is rated for at least a 42t.
Right now yes, im limited to the 30t front x 32t rear gear setup

Last edited by TRIBUNAL; 12-21-20 at 04:35 PM.
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Old 12-21-20, 10:24 PM
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I think there is an "extender" (don't know the actual name - Box Components might have one) that allows the derailleur to accommodate a larger cassette gear.
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Old 12-22-20, 06:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 2old View Post
I think there is an "extender" (don't know the actual name - Box Components might have one) that allows the derailleur to accommodate a larger cassette gear.
It is actually called a rear derailleur hanger extender. But can sometimes make shifting more difficult, at least on an unassisted bike. Dunno if that’s because of the extender itself or the greater difference in size between the cogs on a wider range cassette. Anyway, have no problems with one I’m using on a SWB ‘bent with dual chain idlers, 9-speed Shimano Deore RD and SunRace 11-40T cassette; but same extender and SR on my other non-assisted LWB ‘bent with a SRAM X9 RD and just a return idler, shifting is now tricky on the smaller cogs — chain can easily jam. Breaks my heart because before modding, shifting had been flawless on an 11-36T cassette. But without electric power I really need the extra 4 teeth on the largest sprocket to climb the two steepest hills in my vicinity so am kinda stuck with this setup. Possibly same combo would function better on a bike with hub drive because that system reduces load on the drive train, but a mid drive would likely exacerbate the problem.

Didn’t have to mount an extender to my similar model LWB cargo ‘bent with dual hub motors, as an 11-28T cassette more than suffices there. On assist level 2 (out of 9) can cruise up hills around 10mph in mid gear, fully loaded.
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Old 12-22-20, 09:24 AM
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AC, thanks for mentioning that. Surprisingly (to me), I was changing the drivetrain on my wife's MTB and the Shimano XT derailleur has an extender even though it came with an 11 - 34 rear cassette.
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Old 12-22-20, 12:02 PM
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Well 2old the newer model, low profile (previously known as Saint) Deore RD does come with a built-in extender, if thatís what you are talking about. Shimano does not specify in the accompanying literature or anywhere on the retail package the largest number of teeth it will support, but I assume it should be good for at least 40T. Earlier Deore without the built-in canít deal with more than 34T before the jockey pulley rubs against the chain in the largest cog ó thatís the model I have on my SWB along with the matching black derailleur hanger extender.



Cabling on that bike as it exits from inside the rack and seat stays would be kinda tortured if paired with the low profile Deore, what with that modelís upward/outward housing stop.

Funny but I just replaced the vintage Alivio on my LWB e-cumbent with a new low profile Deore, after modifying its housings to bypass the stops on the rear stays around a dual leg kickstand so that the exposed cables wouldnít rub against the center mount. In this new setup, sharp upward angle from the derailleur engages the housing much better than would have the prior Alivioís horizontal layout. Dunno whether the built-in extender conveys any benefit with regard to the relatively small cassette Iím running on that bike; might make it easier to move the derailleur out of the way when mounting/removing the rear wheel?



Just occurred to me one other difference between setups of my two unassisted Ďbentís: swapped in microSHIFT thumbies and set to friction mode on the SWB with old school Deore RD and hanger extender, but retained the original SRAM5 triggers on the LWB with SRAMX9 RD and extender. So perhaps the shifter style has some effect on ultimate performance when modding the RD hanger for compatibility with larger cassettes. But again, probably less of an issue on a hub-drive e-bike due to reduced load on the drivetrain.
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Old 03-04-21, 02:01 PM
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Im sorry it's been so long but my motor broke and I decided to cheap out and order the parts from china which took not 1 but 2 months to arrive, really longer then that because it wasnt just the core hall sensors but rather the controller as well which i ordered from cali, but w/e. The nightmare is over and the motor is back in and basically brand new.
As for the cassette, I did it and it worked.
I got the cassette, https://www.amazon.com/CYSKY-Cassett...8401892&sr=8-1
I used a dremel to grind the three rivets off and the gears separated perfectly
I set up the gearing how i wanted and for now just used the 11 speed spacing, just to see if this works.
I didnt know if the original derailleur would work with a 50t gear, but it does.
I used the gears i took out to space the gears im using away from the spokes and straighten out the chain line.
all said and done, its working without a problem. I do need to make sure I don't shift past the largest gear but if i do, its not a big deal. I also am careful about sifting as it is because that's when I have broken things in the past so I avoid a lot of shifting. Is it smooth enough for an avid user, im not sure, but it works for me and my application. I had problems setting up the derailleur, its working well enough for now so im not touching it, but im sure it could be improved. I think it was damaged in the plane. The chain is also too long i think.
Now im looking to upgrade to the new V2 Cyclone. coming soon >)



dirty
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Old 03-04-21, 07:51 PM
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Good job and glad it worked. Don't know whether you've heard a Cyclone; you may miss the relative quiet of the BBS, but I hope not.
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Old 03-04-21, 11:10 PM
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thanks man, yea apparently the new version is much quieter then the gen 1, unfortunately its also much more expensive at about $1100. I'm hesitant to push the button, but I've been saving for it... still between that and the battery you're near $2k, I've spent less on cars. The bbs02 just isn't intended for what i was using it for and I'm just going to keep having to replace it. now I'm taking it easy on her and watching the temp closely but its ridiculous. Again, its awesome but not for continuous up hill with high weight. If it didn't heat up I'd just keep the bbs02. The other thing is I'd rather have a motor that's capable of much more then what I'm using it for then a motor that's riding on the edge of what it's capable of.
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Old 03-05-21, 12:06 AM
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Have you considered the BBSHD? It should shed heat more readily since it's a bigger motor. Maybe you can sell your BBS02 for past of the expense.
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Old 03-05-21, 12:50 PM
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Yea i was originally thinking about the HD but someone who reviewed it said while it has more power, it has the same problem of heating up on uphill terrain. I might sell the old kit, but if i can afford it, it would be nice to pick up a cheap bike and put the kit on there for friends and family to use on an outing together. That could be a lot of fun weather its around the shoreline which i have yet to check out on my bike, or something like daily ranch that's more up and down. of course this would be cruel as they would surely become addicted, as I have
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