Shimano 105 hubs for touring? And will a 105 FD work with SLX cranks?
01-23-14, 04:20 AM
#1
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Shimano 105 hubs for touring? And will a 105 FD work with SLX cranks?
The title pretty much sums it up. I'm building wheels, and about to go to a bike swap. My bike is currently spaced to 130mm in rear anyway, so I was thinking perhaps I'd just build wheels around a road hub rather than spread the rear to fit an XT or LX hub. Will a 105 hub be up to extended loaded touring? And would the 5mm hub width affect the wheel dish enough to make the wheel weaker in a way that actually matters or just one of those "theoretically" situations?
Also, I need a FD for a 28.6 seat tube. 105 FDs seem to be fairly common, and MTB FD more scarce. Is there any reason a 105 made for a triple wouldn't shift fine on a SLX crank with bar-ends?
Also, I need a FD for a 28.6 seat tube. 105 FDs seem to be fairly common, and MTB FD more scarce. Is there any reason a 105 made for a triple wouldn't shift fine on a SLX crank with bar-ends?
01-23-14, 05:39 AM
#2
aka Timi
Shimano 105 hubs for touring? And will a 105 FD work with SLX cranks?
Yes! I wouldn't hesitate for a second 'bout touring on 105 hubs.
Better than spreading the frame. If you do anyway, spreading to 132.5 mm would be better and fit both road and mtb hubs without any extra dishing. (It is a steel frame?)
Can't see any reason a 105 FD wouldn't be fine too.
Edit: unless you're touring in S.America, Asia or Africa, then 135mm hubs and 26" wheels would be preferable due to local availability.
Better than spreading the frame. If you do anyway, spreading to 132.5 mm would be better and fit both road and mtb hubs without any extra dishing. (It is a steel frame?)
Can't see any reason a 105 FD wouldn't be fine too.
Edit: unless you're touring in S.America, Asia or Africa, then 135mm hubs and 26" wheels would be preferable due to local availability.
Last edited by imi; 01-23-14 at 05:54 AM.
01-23-14, 09:00 AM
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I have a rear wheel built with a Tiagra hub with 130mm spacing that works like a charm and is plenty strong. Somewhere there is a thread here in which the late Sheldon Brown gave his opinion that Shimano road hubs- in particular, Tiagra, were great for loaded touring. The 105 would be a step up. My bike also has a Shimano Sora FD for triple crankset that works very well. I don't see any reason that your 105 would not work just as well. The issue that you may need to pay attention to is chainline. Since I am in my large chainring most of the time I have as short of a spindle as I can get by with -110mm- to optimize the chainline and so that the inner ring to not touch the chain stay.
01-23-14, 09:26 AM
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The title pretty much sums it up. I'm building wheels, and about to go to a bike swap. My bike is currently spaced to 130mm in rear anyway, so I was thinking perhaps I'd just build wheels around a road hub rather than spread the rear to fit an XT or LX hub. Will a 105 hub be up to extended loaded touring? And would the 5mm hub width affect the wheel dish enough to make the wheel weaker in a way that actually matters or just one of those "theoretically" situations?
Also, I need a FD for a 28.6 seat tube. 105 FDs seem to be fairly common, and MTB FD more scarce. Is there any reason a 105 made for a triple wouldn't shift fine on a SLX crank with bar-ends?
Also, I need a FD for a 28.6 seat tube. 105 FDs seem to be fairly common, and MTB FD more scarce. Is there any reason a 105 made for a triple wouldn't shift fine on a SLX crank with bar-ends?
The front derailer is a different issue. I wouldn't use a 105 for a wide range touring bike. The real jewel of the Shimano road front derailers is the Tiagra. 105 and higher front derailers from Shimano are narrower and have more sculpted shift plates to make the shifts quicker. But that sculpting and narrowness make them less forgiving when used with a wider range cassette. Since you are using bar ends you won't have the set up problems that you do with STI but you'll have to trim the derailer frequently.
Tiagra front derailers are 2-3mm wider between the plates and the plates themselves are smoother. This means that you can shift between more gears on the rear before having to adjust it to stop chain rub. I haven't really noticed in decrease in crispness of the shift compared to the Ultegra front derailer I have on a couple of my bikes. But I do notice the chain rub.
I've noticed this same problem with Shimano mountain bike derailers as well. Deore is a great front derailer while the SLX (LX), XT and XTR are all very finicky. In fact, I go outside the Shimano family for my front derailers and go to Sram. The Sram X3 to X0 are fantastic front derailers that perform much better than most of the Shimanos. They work with Shimano mountain bike shifters as well.
Finally, you can use just about any diameter front derailer you want as long as it has a larger diameter than your seat tube. You just have to get the proper shim.
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
01-23-14, 11:18 AM
#6
Banned
just road bike gearing is a bit high .. unless you do fully supported tours , and carry very little..
there are many commercial opportunities to hire those services..
there are many commercial opportunities to hire those services..
01-23-14, 01:35 PM
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What he said...
The hubs shouldn't be a problem. Finding them in anything over a 32 spoke count might be, however. A higher spoke count would be better especially with the narrower hub that is dished more.
The front derailer is a different issue. I wouldn't use a 105 for a wide range touring bike. The real jewel of the Shimano road front derailers is the Tiagra. 105 and higher front derailers from Shimano are narrower and have more sculpted shift plates to make the shifts quicker. But that sculpting and narrowness make them less forgiving when used with a wider range cassette. Since you are using bar ends you won't have the set up problems that you do with STI but you'll have to trim the derailer frequently.
Tiagra front derailers are 2-3mm wider between the plates and the plates themselves are smoother. This means that you can shift between more gears on the rear before having to adjust it to stop chain rub. I haven't really noticed in decrease in crispness of the shift compared to the Ultegra front derailer I have on a couple of my bikes. But I do notice the chain rub.
I've noticed this same problem with Shimano mountain bike derailers as well. Deore is a great front derailer while the SLX (LX), XT and XTR are all very finicky. In fact, I go outside the Shimano family for my front derailers and go to Sram. The Sram X3 to X0 are fantastic front derailers that perform much better than most of the Shimanos. They work with Shimano mountain bike shifters as well.
Finally, you can use just about any diameter front derailer you want as long as it has a larger diameter than your seat tube. You just have to get the proper shim.
The front derailer is a different issue. I wouldn't use a 105 for a wide range touring bike. The real jewel of the Shimano road front derailers is the Tiagra. 105 and higher front derailers from Shimano are narrower and have more sculpted shift plates to make the shifts quicker. But that sculpting and narrowness make them less forgiving when used with a wider range cassette. Since you are using bar ends you won't have the set up problems that you do with STI but you'll have to trim the derailer frequently.
Tiagra front derailers are 2-3mm wider between the plates and the plates themselves are smoother. This means that you can shift between more gears on the rear before having to adjust it to stop chain rub. I haven't really noticed in decrease in crispness of the shift compared to the Ultegra front derailer I have on a couple of my bikes. But I do notice the chain rub.
I've noticed this same problem with Shimano mountain bike derailers as well. Deore is a great front derailer while the SLX (LX), XT and XTR are all very finicky. In fact, I go outside the Shimano family for my front derailers and go to Sram. The Sram X3 to X0 are fantastic front derailers that perform much better than most of the Shimanos. They work with Shimano mountain bike shifters as well.
Finally, you can use just about any diameter front derailer you want as long as it has a larger diameter than your seat tube. You just have to get the proper shim.
01-23-14, 08:37 PM
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I've noticed this same problem with Shimano mountain bike derailers as well. Deore is a great front derailer while the SLX (LX), XT and XTR are all very finicky. In fact, I go outside the Shimano family for my front derailers and go to Sram. The Sram X3 to X0 are fantastic front derailers that perform much better than most of the Shimanos. They work with Shimano mountain bike shifters as well.
01-23-14, 10:41 PM
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The Sram X series front derailers are used with mountain shifters which have a different cable pull. Some people say that they can get a mountain bike derailer to work with STI but others, including myself, haven't been able to do so. It does take more work to get it to work. If you want the simplest set up, use the Tiagra.
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
01-23-14, 11:53 PM
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+2 on the Tiagra 4503 front derailleur. We use them on all my family's touring bikes for all the reasons Cyccommute outlined.
I have a pair of wheels built around 36 spoke 105 hubs, Velocity Dyad rims, and Wheelsmith DB spokes that I'd use just about anywhere. I think they are a good choice for a bike with 130 mm rear dropouts. My wife has almost the same wheels, only with Ultegra hubs. She has given them hard use, about 10,000 miles, over the last 3 years. About a 2/3 of that was fully loaded touring. No issues with either wheelset.
I have a pair of wheels built around 36 spoke 105 hubs, Velocity Dyad rims, and Wheelsmith DB spokes that I'd use just about anywhere. I think they are a good choice for a bike with 130 mm rear dropouts. My wife has almost the same wheels, only with Ultegra hubs. She has given them hard use, about 10,000 miles, over the last 3 years. About a 2/3 of that was fully loaded touring. No issues with either wheelset.
01-24-14, 12:04 AM
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The Sram X series front derailers are used with mountain shifters which have a different cable pull. Some people say that they can get a mountain bike derailer to work with STI but others, including myself, haven't been able to do so. It does take more work to get it to work. If you want the simplest set up, use the Tiagra.
01-24-14, 03:08 AM
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The hubs shouldn't be a problem. Finding them in anything over a 32 spoke count might be, however. A higher spoke count would be better especially with the narrower hub that is dished more.
The front derailer is a different issue. I wouldn't use a 105 for a wide range touring bike. The real jewel of the Shimano road front derailers is the Tiagra. 105 and higher front derailers from Shimano are narrower and have more sculpted shift plates to make the shifts quicker. But that sculpting and narrowness make them less forgiving when used with a wider range cassette. Since you are using bar ends you won't have the set up problems that you do with STI but you'll have to trim the derailer frequently.
Tiagra front derailers are 2-3mm wider between the plates and the plates themselves are smoother. This means that you can shift between more gears on the rear before having to adjust it to stop chain rub. I haven't really noticed in decrease in crispness of the shift compared to the Ultegra front derailer I have on a couple of my bikes. But I do notice the chain rub.
I've noticed this same problem with Shimano mountain bike derailers as well. Deore is a great front derailer while the SLX (LX), XT and XTR are all very finicky. In fact, I go outside the Shimano family for my front derailers and go to Sram. The Sram X3 to X0 are fantastic front derailers that perform much better than most of the Shimanos. They work with Shimano mountain bike shifters as well.
Finally, you can use just about any diameter front derailer you want as long as it has a larger diameter than your seat tube. You just have to get the proper shim.
The front derailer is a different issue. I wouldn't use a 105 for a wide range touring bike. The real jewel of the Shimano road front derailers is the Tiagra. 105 and higher front derailers from Shimano are narrower and have more sculpted shift plates to make the shifts quicker. But that sculpting and narrowness make them less forgiving when used with a wider range cassette. Since you are using bar ends you won't have the set up problems that you do with STI but you'll have to trim the derailer frequently.
Tiagra front derailers are 2-3mm wider between the plates and the plates themselves are smoother. This means that you can shift between more gears on the rear before having to adjust it to stop chain rub. I haven't really noticed in decrease in crispness of the shift compared to the Ultegra front derailer I have on a couple of my bikes. But I do notice the chain rub.
I've noticed this same problem with Shimano mountain bike derailers as well. Deore is a great front derailer while the SLX (LX), XT and XTR are all very finicky. In fact, I go outside the Shimano family for my front derailers and go to Sram. The Sram X3 to X0 are fantastic front derailers that perform much better than most of the Shimanos. They work with Shimano mountain bike shifters as well.
Finally, you can use just about any diameter front derailer you want as long as it has a larger diameter than your seat tube. You just have to get the proper shim.
01-24-14, 08:10 AM
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I cant help with the wheel question but i can describe how i am going about determining my groupe set for a disc trucker build
First I am having Peter White build me a rear wheel Chukker rim with a Velocity disc hub. At $250 peace comes to mind
To select the other components I used J & B Importers online catalogue https://www.jbimporters.com/web/ to look at the capibilities of Shimano cranksets, derailers , sprockkets and shifters for 9 speed build. If I had more questions i went to the Shimano main page https://bike.shimano.com/ then to the part i needed https://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont..._mountain.html
As for prices and other information i search the individual Shimano part number on google. ( FC M590) That usually generated an amazon.com, mt bike review and Harris cycling link (Sheldon Brown)
I was able to match derailleur capabilities with crank tooth numbers to finalize my groupe list
What i found about SLX https://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont..._dyna-sys.html
FD Info https://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont...105_black.html
First I am having Peter White build me a rear wheel Chukker rim with a Velocity disc hub. At $250 peace comes to mind
To select the other components I used J & B Importers online catalogue https://www.jbimporters.com/web/ to look at the capibilities of Shimano cranksets, derailers , sprockkets and shifters for 9 speed build. If I had more questions i went to the Shimano main page https://bike.shimano.com/ then to the part i needed https://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont..._mountain.html
As for prices and other information i search the individual Shimano part number on google. ( FC M590) That usually generated an amazon.com, mt bike review and Harris cycling link (Sheldon Brown)
I was able to match derailleur capabilities with crank tooth numbers to finalize my groupe list
What i found about SLX https://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont..._dyna-sys.html
FD Info https://bike.shimano.com/publish/cont...105_black.html
01-26-14, 10:16 PM
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While I've used the Tiagra FD/ Mountain cranks combination on several bikes, I've used a shorter bottom bracket spindle to maintain a 45-47 mm chainline. Most mountain bike cranks are designed to use a 50 mm chainline. Even as flexible as the Tiagra FD is, I am not sure it has the range to work with a 50 mm chainline. The SLX crankset and recommended bottom bracket are designed for a 50 mm chainline. Hopefully, someone who has tried it with a triple/ 50 mm chainline will chime in.
Last edited by Doug64; 01-26-14 at 10:21 PM.
01-27-14, 07:43 AM
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I got to thinking about what I said above and should have been a little more specific.
While I've used the Tiagra FD/ Mountain cranks combination on several bikes, I've used a shorter bottom bracket spindle to maintain a 45-47 mm chainline. Most mountain bike cranks are designed to use a 50 mm chainline. Even as flexible as the Tiagra FD is, I am not sure it has the range to work with a 50 mm chainline. The SLX crankset and recommended bottom bracket are designed for a 50 mm chainline. Hopefully, someone who has tried it with a triple/ 50 mm chainline will chime in.
While I've used the Tiagra FD/ Mountain cranks combination on several bikes, I've used a shorter bottom bracket spindle to maintain a 45-47 mm chainline. Most mountain bike cranks are designed to use a 50 mm chainline. Even as flexible as the Tiagra FD is, I am not sure it has the range to work with a 50 mm chainline. The SLX crankset and recommended bottom bracket are designed for a 50 mm chainline. Hopefully, someone who has tried it with a triple/ 50 mm chainline will chime in.
Both bikes have 68mm bottom brackets and I just noticed that the crank is the same crank. The white bike...a mountain bike...has a 44 tooth chainwheel on it and the rings are right up against the frame and that is only because the crank is set to a 47mm chainline. I might be able to put a 46 tooth ring on the crank but a 48 tooth would be too big. The black bike...a touring bike...has a 46 tooth chainwheel but I could easily put on a 52 tooth ring.
I agree that a Tiagra might not be able to shift a mountain bike crank on a mountain bike frame. But on a road bike with a proper chainline for a road bike, it has no problems with a mountain bike crank.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
01-27-14, 12:56 PM
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Thanks Stuart, I'll have to think about this one for awhile.
What I based my statement on was my experience when I replaced road cranksets with square taper mountain bike cranks on the original bottom brackets. The chainline went from about 46 mm to 50 mm+. I went from an 110 mm bottom bracket to an 103 BB to maintain the chainline. It seemed to be the same scenario on bikes with 135 mm dropouts as it was on the one with the 130 mm dropout spacing.
I also ran into the same problem when I went to change my wife's Cannondale T800 from the original Shimano M443 "trekking" crank set to the M442 mountain cranks. The 442 cranks pushed the chainline out to about 50 mm. I ended up just using the mountain chainrings on the trekking crankset. With Shimano Octalink bottom brackets there are not too many other options.
What I thought I took away from this exercise is that most mountain bike cranks will be farther out from the frame than a road crank installed on the same bottom bracket spindle. Drop out spacing and with the same wheel being equal, the spread of the chainstays does not determine the chainline. The distance from the center of the down tube to the center chainring does. it is range on each side of this distance that the FD has to accommodate.
I'm getting ready to change cranksets on a Cannondale T2 I picked up last summer. It has a Shimano 443 crankset on it now. I still have the 442 cranks I was going to use on my wife's bike. I'll do some closer measuring when I do this and try to understand the whole process a little better.
I believe it is the size of the BB spindle that determines chainline, not what kind of bike the crank is on.
OT PS. I read your crazyguy "Picking the Scablands" because it looked like it coverded areas close to where I live. I am always interested in other folk's perceptions of my state, especially areas I've ridden. Good job! I really enjoyed it.
What I based my statement on was my experience when I replaced road cranksets with square taper mountain bike cranks on the original bottom brackets. The chainline went from about 46 mm to 50 mm+. I went from an 110 mm bottom bracket to an 103 BB to maintain the chainline. It seemed to be the same scenario on bikes with 135 mm dropouts as it was on the one with the 130 mm dropout spacing.
I also ran into the same problem when I went to change my wife's Cannondale T800 from the original Shimano M443 "trekking" crank set to the M442 mountain cranks. The 442 cranks pushed the chainline out to about 50 mm. I ended up just using the mountain chainrings on the trekking crankset. With Shimano Octalink bottom brackets there are not too many other options.
What I thought I took away from this exercise is that most mountain bike cranks will be farther out from the frame than a road crank installed on the same bottom bracket spindle. Drop out spacing and with the same wheel being equal, the spread of the chainstays does not determine the chainline. The distance from the center of the down tube to the center chainring does. it is range on each side of this distance that the FD has to accommodate.
I'm getting ready to change cranksets on a Cannondale T2 I picked up last summer. It has a Shimano 443 crankset on it now. I still have the 442 cranks I was going to use on my wife's bike. I'll do some closer measuring when I do this and try to understand the whole process a little better.
I believe it is the size of the BB spindle that determines chainline, not what kind of bike the crank is on.
OT PS. I read your crazyguy "Picking the Scablands" because it looked like it coverded areas close to where I live. I am always interested in other folk's perceptions of my state, especially areas I've ridden. Good job! I really enjoyed it.
Last edited by Doug64; 02-03-14 at 11:59 AM.
02-03-14, 03:45 AM
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You are missing something. You are correct that a mountain bike crank has a 47mm chainline but that is when it is used on a mountain bike. The reason is fairly simple. A mountain bike has to flare the chainstays from 68mm hubshell to an internal width of at least 2.5" in about a 4" distance. Road bikes only have to move the chainstay out to 1 3/4", roughly, in the same distance. Touring bikes have even more space to accomplish the same thing. This is illustrated in these two bikes
Both bikes have 68mm bottom brackets and I just noticed that the crank is the same crank. The white bike...a mountain bike...has a 44 tooth chainwheel on it and the rings are right up against the frame and that is only because the crank is set to a 47mm chainline. I might be able to put a 46 tooth ring on the crank but a 48 tooth would be too big. The black bike...a touring bike...has a 46 tooth chainwheel but I could easily put on a 52 tooth ring.
I agree that a Tiagra might not be able to shift a mountain bike crank on a mountain bike frame. But on a road bike with a proper chainline for a road bike, it has no problems with a mountain bike crank.
Both bikes have 68mm bottom brackets and I just noticed that the crank is the same crank. The white bike...a mountain bike...has a 44 tooth chainwheel on it and the rings are right up against the frame and that is only because the crank is set to a 47mm chainline. I might be able to put a 46 tooth ring on the crank but a 48 tooth would be too big. The black bike...a touring bike...has a 46 tooth chainwheel but I could easily put on a 52 tooth ring.
I agree that a Tiagra might not be able to shift a mountain bike crank on a mountain bike frame. But on a road bike with a proper chainline for a road bike, it has no problems with a mountain bike crank.
