Charles Wahl

I don't even know how to put a bike into a stand single-handed and clamp it by the seat tube, unless you rotate the stand's clamp, then lift the bike onto it, clamp it, and then rotate the whole bike. But you'd have to clamp it really hard to keep it from turning around on the seat tube axis while working on it, and the bike's center of gravity is well forward of the clamp (which itself could easily have caused such dents!). I always clamp a bike on the top tube, but I never worked in a bike shop, so what do I know.

If you just google "bike on bike repair stand images" you'll see a lot of bikes clamped by top tube, fewer clamped by seat post (ones that have a lot of exposed seat post), but virtually none clamped by seat tube. So I'm not crazy. And I still think it's ergonomically nuts to clamp a bike on a vertical axis, rather than a horizontal one.

merziac

They may be adamant but are absolutely remiss for not pointing this out at check in and then before starting the work, I would not have put this in a stand if it was like that.

If they are so sure it was already there, why did they proceed, it should have been a full stop "we are not proceeding without calling this out for the customer to authorize" moment, period.

This is what they do, should have been noted, called out and recognized before any work was started.

I think you may have gone down the "oh its just an old Raleigh, its no big deal" road.

Even if they have a good reputation, they may not handle many of these, their stands and techs are likely going to be preset for mostly bigger, thick wall aluminum frames and carbon which they may have a dedicated tech/stand/process for.

sheddle

This is by far the weirdest part. They're a shop which specializes in used bikes, and one I go to frequently for parts.

One of the employees even commented on the Jubilee derailleur when I rolled the bike in- in other words it's exactly the type of shop I *wouldn't* expect to make a mistake like that with a butted steel tube, which is probably why I'm giving them so much benefit of doubt.

rosefarts

No question to me that those dents were caused by clamping pressure. From a stand most likely. Possibly a car rack or some storage device but I've never seen one like that.

Bring it back and line up to their work stand.

rosefarts

Probably thought steel meant indestructible.

​​​​​​On aluminum and carbon fiber, damage is fairly easy to do, so they have a protocol for it. On steel, they probably think everything is a 1993 Hardrock.

jackbombay

I have a beat up old broken derosa in my garage, Columbus EL tubing, I'm going to clamp it by the seat tube with as much force as I possibly can, without a seat post in it, to show just how difficult it is to damage a frame with a repair stand, then I will wrangle the bike back and forth violently to attempt to damage the seat tube.

I'm not saying this means the shop didn't damage the frame, but I am saying that merely clamping a frame in a repair stand by the seat tube is *nothing* to be concerned about.

EDIT/// testing done.

I was able to deform the seat tube slightly, not even really visible, but you can feel a slight deformation, and calipers do show that the tube measures a bit over 29mm in one direction an a bit under 28mm if you rotate the calipers 90*.

I did have to stomp on the repair stand to get it closed to deform the tube like this.


With the frame clamped this severely in the stand I stood the stand back up and wrangled the frame back and forth as much as a portable stand will allow and was unable to do any further damage to the seat tube, this is with a park tools bike stand that has a fairly large grip that distributes pressure over a larger area of the frame than other bike stands I have seen.

sheddle

Anyway thanks for the advice folks, I mainly wanted to make sure I wasn't nuts.

I'm really, really averse to conflict so I hate this, but I'm going to have a chat with the owner after I get a repair quote. Don't know if I have options if they tell me to buzz off, but it's not like I have a video of them clamping the bike into the stand by the seat tube so I can't really like take them to Bike Court or whatever, even if I could afford a lawyer.

Feldman

And, the EVT clamp is made to.prevent this kind of damage--they were designed to clamp bikes by the SEAT POST, not by a frame tube.

sheddle

As a fellow De Rosa owner, please don't do that!

merziac

Maybe so but they are failing miserably all the way around at this point.

Like I said, if they're so damn sure, they should have stopped the presses right there and called it out, especially since you were in the shop, totally their bad either way IMO.

They know this is ugly, did you pay with a CC, you may have recourse through that, homeowners, renters insurance may help, I'd check if the shop won't step up.

You could also use their strategy, compile all the business you have done with them in the last 1-2 years and ask them why they think you would make this up or what?

Last resort, BBB, yelp, social media campaign, might be others, bring a chorus together and maybe get their attention.

Unfortunately this sad reality drives home my prime tenant, no bike shop is competent enough or cares enough about my bikes to work on them.

P!N20

From the image above, am I right in saying the dents on the rear of the seat tube are higher than the dents on the front? If that's the case, I think it's plausible that the tube could be dented by using the frame for leverage while in a work stand - either by someone pulling on it or something falling on it (or falling over.) I'm not buying into the possibility that the tube was dented just by clamping too hard - grab a raw egg and try to break it just by squeezing it with one hand, it's really hard, same goes for steel tubes.

Dents like this don't just happen without anyone's knowledge; there's no way this would have happened in the time from when you photographed it the night before to when you handed it over to the bike shop. Somebody there knows something. Have a good look over your frame to see if there's any other damage that may be related.

sheddle

There are two pairs of dents, both symmetrical. Obviously can't be shown from the side, but theyre both in a "w" shape with a bump in the middle.

ridethecliche

If they didn't point it out when you dropped it off, didn't call you when they started the work, and didn't point it out when you picked it up until you pointed it out... Well then they did the damage and were trying to hide it.

​​​​​​Or it means that they have no idea how to inspect a bike. Both are very very bad things.

jackbombay

I got it from the dump because it had been hit by a car in a garage as far as I could tell, and the bulldozer at the dump pushed it up onto the metal pile, whole rear triangle was trash and the top tube is dented and bent, down tube has some damage as well, it is junk.

jackbombay

The dents do point to force upwards on the headtube, or downward on the rear triangle.


Was the seat post stuck when you brought the bike to them which would necessitate them getting overly aggressive with the bike in the stand?


I did edit my previous post with a video and info about trying to crush a seat tube with a repair stand.

sheddle

No, but it was a bit difficult to work with. I got it greased because I was potentially worried about it seizing in the future if I didnt get that done.

I would have worked with it in the way I usually do a seat adjustment without a stand- clamping the rear wheel between my knees. It didn't take an absurd amount of force to get down or anything, just somewhat more than usual which I attributed to me probably not removing the seatpost bolt.

jackbombay

Even if it was stuck that would have been zero justification for them exerting anywhere near as much force as was applied to dent the seat tube.

Ultimately your picture from the night before should be all the proof you need, and them not accepting that is essentially them calling you a liar which is a thoroughly awkward way for them to proceed :-/

sheddle

Is it OK to ride for now, by the way? Slightly concerned about creasing but it's a low stress area.


Shop called it "cosmetic damage" but I'm kind of past trusting their word on this damage...

machinist42

There's "Bike Court" in the PNW now??? Damn. I really have to consider relocating...

You may be averse to conflict in person, but you seem fine in writing. Why not play to your strength, and put it all down on paper, or electrons? Describe clearly what you experienced, what they say happened or didn't, state your responses to their assertions, and respectfully request the remedy you desire.

Indicate you've been advised that all communication must be in writing from now on.

I don't know about there (and your fancy pants "Bike Court"), but here we have Small Claims Court for matters under $10,000. The fees are modest, and non-existent if you are indigent or low income, the case is heard relatively informally by a Magistrate, and lawyers are rarely involved. It keeps us from shooting each other. (This is The South.) I never wear a suit to SCC. If unhappy enough with the decision, either party can appeal up to real big boy court, where one wears a suit.

Can you wear Tweed to "Bike Court," or do you have to wear kit? I might have Tweed. I definitely have wool.

scarlson 

I would ride it. I don't think it'll let you down.

And re: frame blocks, I would try something else first. It's the seat tube, so you have access to one end!

Take out the seatpost, turn a close-fitting metal plug on a lathe with a taper on one end (or use a pillar-type seatpost, minus the "seat guts" clamp, turned upside down) and some threads tapped into it so you can screw it onto the end of a long threaded rod. Shove it down there with plenty of grease. Might need an arbor press. Might get away with a hammer. You'll push out the dent from the inside.

Less likely to harm the paint than frame blocks.

EDIT: Just thinking on this more, you may get away with just a hardwood dowel!

sheddle

We have Bike Court but they mainly prosecute things like photographing your bike crosschained, or wearing a WC stripes jersey. It's pretty boring.

jackbombay

You should put some cosmetic dents in their bikes and see how they respond!

icemilkcoffee 

Ok. So go on Yelp and post your before and after photos and trash them. Find their Facebook page and do the same. Get on every social media and do the same. Name the bike shop here- why be coy about it? Don’t let them get away with this sh*t.... and that was a nice classic bike too that they f#*ked up.

canklecat

BTW, regarding your photos, time stamped is okay (we did that in the film days for safety and health inspections), but metadata is better. If you photographed it before the damage using a digital camera -- especially a phone -- it should have embedded metadata that cannot be easily altered and should serve as evidence in legal proceedings.

The metadata should include the date, time and -- if taken with a phone -- location. That will help with confirming your version of events.

sheddle

Oh yes, it was a cell phone camera. I also have a written statement from the seller that the bike was not damaged when he sold it to me on Friday.

At this point I think know what I have to do, so thanks, folks. I'm taking it to Rodriguez Tuesday to get a repair quote so I have a specific dollar figure to present to the shop for compensation, and I'll see how things go from there. Rodriguez is probably the best known custom shop here along with Davidson, and I'm just a block away.