DanBell

In preparation for a long upcoming tour I have been setting my sights on ever more and more fantastical and grander touring bikes. I have been interested in internal gear systems like the Rohloff Speedhub and was reading about the Pinion gear system. Looking at bike manufacturers that sell Pinion equipped bikes, I don't see anyone making one with S and S couplers. Does anyone know if this is available anywhere? If not, is there a reason for it? I was wondering if the frame adjustments necessitated by the Pinion gear box meant that the bottom coupler couldn't be placed close enough to the bottom bracket to ensure the bike could fit inside the promised airline palatable bike box, but I don't know if that's true or not. I recognize that the Pinion gearbox is not in wide use, but if anyone has any insight on this, even gleaned from websites I haven't managed to find yet, I would be interested to hear it.

Thanks,

Daniel

DanBell

I did find this but it doesn't have the info I'm looking for.

DropBarFan

Hilite makes custom-built Titanium bikes, their Pinion P.18 frame goes for $4,700. S & S couplers offered as an option.

Ein Titan Pinion P1.18 Rahmen ist wahrlich ein HILITE
Customer gallery | PINION | DRIVE TECHNOLOGY |

I don't see a list of licensed builders at the Pinion site, but photo gallery notes some different builders. Don't know if any of those bikes in the gallery can be bought with S & S.

ShortLegCyclist

That's my thread. If anyone is doing this, it would be on display this week at Eurobike, and my local bike shop owner is over there right now. He's supposed to give me an update when he gets back.

Several US custom makers do S and S retrofits to steel and ti bikes, so that might be an option, but you'd have to risk a $4000+ Pinion bike to try it.

DanBell

I saw that Hilite thread. That's a bit pricey for me, even though I'm already looking at some pretty expensive bikes. The pinion website has this page which allows you to sort through some of the manufacturers, but I can't find anyone offering a stock steel pinion bike with S and S as an option.

That's the rub, isn't it? I'd much rather buy something with the bike designed for couplers and installed as part of the initial build than have them added afterwards.

martianone

I believe 47NORD offers S&S couplers in their Pinion equipped bikes.
would love to try one.

Scummer

Maybe with the pinion gearbox you don't get the location in the downtube where the S&S couplers should sit to split the bike in half with proper sizing so it fits in a predefined travel case.

My S&S couplers are installed roughly 2.5inch from the bottom bracket.

Tourist in MSN

The more grander and fantastical I think when it comes to far off places, the more I want to be conventional with equipment to make repair and maintenance easiest.

Rohloffs have been around a long enough time that I consider that to be conventional, same with S&S couplers. But I have no interest in being an early convert to the latest fads and ideas, some of which will succeed but others will not.

ShortLegCyclist

Does 47 degree Nord have any US dealer or distributor?

Actually, I have a cousin who is working in Geneva right now, wonder if I could have him buy one, pay him, visit him and bring the bike back!

fietsbob

Pinion is German, SandS is in California, OP is in Tokyo Japan .. there is a Lot of shipping distance to put all those elements together ,
But DHL and UPS are world wide services ..

Maybe start with a German Custom Frame builder found by contacting Pinion for recommended Builders ,
Write in person if the site did not do the work for You..

since shipping the connectors to Germany will cost less.

there is a Builder's list on the SandS machine too. site maybe you can find a builder on Both Lists?

vik 

Agreed. Not only that, but all the whiz bang flavour of the day stuff doesn't make your tour better.

DropBarFan

Yes, initial install cheaper/easier than retrofit. Was a bit irritating when buying Surly Disc Trucker: Surly used to sell an LHT S & S frame but coupler option not offered on Disc Trucker. I forget exact prices but I think the retrofit was 2 or 3X what pre-installed couplers was. Only consolation was having an excuse for repaint in nice color.

DropBarFan

I crudely measured a photo of 47Nord Pinion--yes the Pinion takes some space ahead of (normal) BB area but it looks like couplers would still allow sections to fit in case.

DropBarFan

One can tour just fine on all sorts of stuff; I'm not tech-obsessed enough to pay huge premium to be an early adopter. OTOH much of the "whiz bang" stuff is basically proven technology. I doubt German companies would spend a fortune developing stuff like Pinion w/o making absolutely sure it would work well. Belt drive is used widely in motos & cars. I'd think that belt-drive would be esp ideal for touring--one can happily ride thru mud, sand, rain, salted roads etc w/o worrying about cleaning a gritty slow chain. Spare belt is pretty light to carry as insurance. Last winter I went for 5-mile bike ride on slushy salted streets, the salt removed all the lube.

Northern Europeans seem to be rather keen on IGH/belt, perhaps in part due to that it's not uncommon for that area to get snow in spring or fall. Derailleur wheels get gunky & slow too. Derailleurs are fairly easy to damage & now the designs can make it difficult to accurately lube all the pivot points. Seems logical that IGH/belt will be the future of mass-market bikes; casual riders don't have the skill/time/desire to fuss with dirty drive-train maintenance.

Tourist in MSN

I will stick with chains for my Rohloff. I like to be able to change my gear ratios depending on what I will be using the bike for. I can swap out a chainring and add or subtract a few links to a chain pretty quickly, not so easy to do with a belt.

IGH is not that new. I have an old 3 speed in storage in the basement that has drum brakes in the hubs. The external chainguard was pretty good at keeping clothing out of the chain. That bike was state of the art half a century ago.

MassiveD

Yeah, on the larger frames doesn't look all that good for getting the break where you need it. And the whole unit is super heavy. I would be interested in the technology, but maybe it isn't the best bet for a folder/demountable bike. Is there any particular reason why they couldn't have the gearbox on the seatpost, other than that they don't?

DanBell

Thanks for the discussion everyone. All good points against going this route, and ones I've been batting around in my head. The pinion stuff has been on the market for five years, so it's not totally in it's infancy, but there isn't near the amount of reviews and real world accounts of use that you have with Rohloff. One black box on the bike is much the same as another as far as repairability goes, but the Rohloff certainly has a track record of reliability in it's favor.

MassiveD

I don't have much concern about the system, though I hadn't heard of it before. I think one just has to look at the logic of it. There are lots of female tourists, and kids out there hauling around the exact same weight in gearing as I do at twice their weight, and it doesn't seem crazy to own a system like the pinion that ads 2 pounds to my bike if it has other benefits.

I have a Rohloff hub, and I don't like it that much because they are ugly, not designed for touring, and heavy on the wheel. Pinion would seem to have many advantages, though whether folding is one of them or not, I don't know. Another concern for me is I am set up to make my own frames, and I just don't know what that would involve with pinion, and even whether they support home builders as a lot like Sachs and S&S do not.

gdlerner

So please tell me why Rohloff is not for touring?We been touring with Rohloff for the last 15 years and never have any problem.

MassiveD

It is just a basic fact that they were not designed for touring, lack of 36 spokes is part of that, but gear either is or isn't designed for touring, if your head is in MTBs things come out differently. The flanges have failed on tour. Thorn has recommended ratios that are out of the legal range. All indicative of the second thought mentality going into it.

Tourist in MSN

Almost all of the drive train components commonly used for touring were designed for other uses, so I would not say that is a problem with Rohloffs. Of everything on my Rohloff bike or my derailleur touring bikes, I can't think of one drive train component that was specifically designed for touring - although I suppose you could argue that bar end shifters were mostly used for touring decades ago before the time trial and triathalon competitors started using them.

My Rohloff is 36 spokes, bought it about two and a half years ago. Did they stop making 36 hole hubs?

When I chose my chainring sizes, for hill climbing I chose 36/16 as a ratio based on a speed of 3.5 mph and a cadence of 72, that ratio is within their approved range. The slowest cadence that I like to maintain is 72 and I felt that 3.5 mph was the slowest that I could pedal a loaded bike and retain my balance. According to this page, I could go down to a ratio of 30/16 and still be in their approved range because I weigh about 80 kg.
Sprocket ratios: www.rohloff.de

Are you saying Thorn recommends a lower ratio than 30/16 (or since they usually recommend a 17T cog, a ratio of 32/17)? Or did they suggest that someone over 100 kg use a ratio below the approved ratio for heavier riders?

fietsbob

Reading the Manual "40/17;38/16;36/15;32/13 ~ 2.35:1 is written in it.

wand a lower low?, bike with a smaller wheel is the way ..

the 38:16 in my 26" wheel bike has a similar gear range in my Bike Friday (Pocket Llama , disc)

with a 53t & the 16t hub cog..

Thorn Sells a larger R'off cog to mate with a larger chainring so as to increase the wear life of them, just by being larger.. more teeth share the wear.
Thorn Sprocket for Rohloff Hubs - £29.99 19t x 2.35 = 44.65 so a 44 or 46 chainring would be good. *


Phil wood makes their version of the standard R'off cog sizes in a 1/32" wider 1/8" tooth vs the German 3/32" wide
"8 speed compatible" derailleur chain (which Rohloff also makes one)

* Given the appropriate chain line is typically where outer chainrings line up
& lots of MTB cranks have 44t outer chainrings , there is a bit of practicality there.

Tourist in MSN

You have an old manual. I think they dropped the ratio to 2.1 in 2012. I bought mine in spring 2013, thus at that time my 36/16 ratio was acceptable. I do not know when they dropped the ratio to 1.9.

My chainline is intentionally off by about 5mm. I wanted a bashguard in the outer position on a double crank and I wanted my pedal width (Q factor) to be similar to my other bikes. Thus, I intentionally ordered a bottom bracket is about 10mm shorter than ideal.

fietsbob

Yea I read the Fudged it a bit for the 29er market sector .. still say easiest way to lower the low gear is a 20" wheel ..

I could put a double crank on my Bike Friday or put a Schlumpf Speed drive 2 gear crankset on (a 1.65x internal Overdrive)

MassiveD

There is a difference between not specificallly... and not designed. It may not be the case that the early evolution of some stuff was done specifically or exclusively for touring, but touring was at one time big and plenty of components were designed as touring components, and many people used bikes in a touring mode without the degree of product segmentation that we now have. A bike that was durable could carry gear, and travel long distances was a military application since at least the first world war (1914).

Something like a dérailleur designed for MTBs gets more of a pass because the modular design makes it possible to use a Phil touring hub, and a cassette that was designed for touring, etc... And a dozen folks make everything from racing to tandem gear, so there is no actual problem with the fact that the original folks didn't think it through.

No, more like they only started making it two years ago, and you bought the 36 right? Sounds natural to me but one used to get a lot of arguments from people who thought 32 was the perfect only choice, despite the fact there are well documented cases of the flange tearing off. Now 32 is enough for a lot of stuff. I am legitimately and also slothfully at the upper weight limits of bike gear. Cancer wouldn't get me light enough, however, and alive. I do tend to look at the heavy uses end of the spectrum.