Frontal Impact
08-10-18, 12:08 PM
#26
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The tubing is Ishiwata 022, similar in gauge profile to Columbus SL. 022 was most notably used for Bridgestone's MB-1, particularly in later years of the Petersen era.
The frame is probably at the higher end of Maruishi's catalog, although the brand itself doesn't have a tremendous amount of panache in comparison to some other brands in that era (Panasonic).
I'd fix it.
The frame is probably at the higher end of Maruishi's catalog, although the brand itself doesn't have a tremendous amount of panache in comparison to some other brands in that era (Panasonic).
I'd fix it.
08-10-18, 12:14 PM
#27
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I was thinking the same thing. I had a crashed RB-1 that had the same stickers. Unfortunately it was worse than this one and the lugs were cracked. It is now hanging from the ceiling at the local coop.
08-10-18, 12:23 PM
#28
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The tubing is Ishiwata 022, similar in gauge profile to Columbus SL. 022 was most notably used for Bridgestone's MB-1, particularly in later years of the Petersen era.
The frame is probably at the higher end of Maruishi's catalog, although the brand itself doesn't have a tremendous amount of panache in comparison to some other brands in that era (Panasonic).
I'd fix it.
The frame is probably at the higher end of Maruishi's catalog, although the brand itself doesn't have a tremendous amount of panache in comparison to some other brands in that era (Panasonic).
I'd fix it.
08-10-18, 12:28 PM
#29
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The tubing is Ishiwata 022, similar in gauge profile to Columbus SL. 022 was most notably used for Bridgestone's MB-1, particularly in later years of the Petersen era.
The frame is probably at the higher end of Maruishi's catalog, although the brand itself doesn't have a tremendous amount of panache in comparison to some other brands in that era (Panasonic).
I'd fix it.
The frame is probably at the higher end of Maruishi's catalog, although the brand itself doesn't have a tremendous amount of panache in comparison to some other brands in that era (Panasonic).
I'd fix it.
08-10-18, 01:37 PM
#30
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It is sometimes difficult to know whether the fork was bent or not, given that the fork is intention ally bent (curved) as part of its design. For the fork, the question is does it still have its original profile. I suspect not. Judging by eye would be difficult.
What Would I Do - I'd get ahold of the seller and discuss terms to obtain a refund, The seller failed to disclose structural damage. That is inexcusable.
What Would I Do - I'd get ahold of the seller and discuss terms to obtain a refund, The seller failed to disclose structural damage. That is inexcusable.
08-10-18, 02:46 PM
#31
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No, I'd probably try a combination of frame blocks and jury-rigged straightening tools. After straightening, any damage to the paint could be touched up by careful brushwork with a reasonably close color match enamel. At worst you'd have to prime and repaint the whole frame. It'd be worth it if you could keep the total price under about a hundred dollars. I have some builders around me (Bilenky and Kellogg), but they'd probably say "Don't bother, it's not like it's a Cinelli Supercorsa or anything."
I would do it, but I like these sort of challenges. Not everyone is me. Not everyone is comfortable wrenching and refinishing. Not everyone likes to expend effort of this kind, whereby the end product only has value to one person. If the original owner didn't tell you about the damage and you paid for it to be straight and undamaged, definitely try to get a refund - or at least some cash back to effect whatever repairs you can manage.
I would do it, but I like these sort of challenges. Not everyone is me. Not everyone is comfortable wrenching and refinishing. Not everyone likes to expend effort of this kind, whereby the end product only has value to one person. If the original owner didn't tell you about the damage and you paid for it to be straight and undamaged, definitely try to get a refund - or at least some cash back to effect whatever repairs you can manage.
Last edited by kunsunoke; 08-10-18 at 02:55 PM.
08-10-18, 03:41 PM
#32
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In a front crash, among your front wheel, your fork, and your frame, you can damage any combination of these three things. It is very common for one to be damaged and the other two to be unscathed. The fork looks fine, and I bet it is fine.
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08-10-18, 05:09 PM
#33
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...yes, that's a sign of a front end crash, and there are not a whole lot of other possibilities. The fork does not always bend on those, so probably not a replacement that someone went to the trouble of color match painting. I have a similar bike, and I like the way it rides...they were a very fine production bike out of the glory days in Japanese bike exporting to the United States (the Maruishi's also show up in Australia, for some reason.) I have realigned frames that were similarly damaged a few times to make them ride more closely to the original design. It's not especially difficult, but you can end up making the problem worse if you have no experience with cold bending bike forks and frames.
IN essence, the procedure is to remove the fork and headset, then insert some dummy steel headset races in the upper and lower ends of the headtube. (this is to prevent ovalizing the head tube.) It's easier to do if the frame is stripped of all wheels and components as well. Then you slip the head tube over a piece of steel plumbing pipe that is just small enough in diameter to fit through those dummy races, upside down. The pipe is held in a sturdy bench vise, and you need clearance at the bench so that you can exert some downward force.
Clamp a scrap rear hub or rear axle into the rear dropouts(it ought to be disposable, because the axle can bend, but usually does not.) Then take a long 2x4 ( your lever) and run it up under the edge of the workbench, and over the dummy axle/hub in the rear. This gives you a relatively controllable lever for exerting bending force in the opposite direction from what happened in the crash. You'll never get it exactly perfect, but you can get it aligned almost to the point where the head tube angle duplicates the original, and most of that bulge underneath disappears. It does take quite a bit of force, but be careful not to go too far.
Or if you're happy as is, enjoy riding it.
IN essence, the procedure is to remove the fork and headset, then insert some dummy steel headset races in the upper and lower ends of the headtube. (this is to prevent ovalizing the head tube.) It's easier to do if the frame is stripped of all wheels and components as well. Then you slip the head tube over a piece of steel plumbing pipe that is just small enough in diameter to fit through those dummy races, upside down. The pipe is held in a sturdy bench vise, and you need clearance at the bench so that you can exert some downward force.
Clamp a scrap rear hub or rear axle into the rear dropouts(it ought to be disposable, because the axle can bend, but usually does not.) Then take a long 2x4 ( your lever) and run it up under the edge of the workbench, and over the dummy axle/hub in the rear. This gives you a relatively controllable lever for exerting bending force in the opposite direction from what happened in the crash. You'll never get it exactly perfect, but you can get it aligned almost to the point where the head tube angle duplicates the original, and most of that bulge underneath disappears. It does take quite a bit of force, but be careful not to go too far.
Or if you're happy as is, enjoy riding it.
Anyway, here's at least one example of a repair of that sort of damage by cold bending. It has not been repainted, even though you can see some cracking where the tubing was bulged.
Yes, it will probably eventually fail somewhere at the point where the tubing walls got bent and then straightened. Such failures in steel tubing frames rarely occur without warning with some prior crack that eventually propagates in a line around the tubing. I only salvaged this one because it is a Frejus, and I don't race it or otherwise ride it hard. It's just a nice older bike that I wanted to preserve in some fashion, but a true repair with new frame tubes would cost way more investment in time and money than it is worth to me as a bike. There are many other bikes that have not been crashed.
08-10-18, 06:57 PM
#34
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...here is a bicycle I repaired with the same sort of frame head tube damage using the method described above. It rides fine, although the original geometry was a little bit idiosyncratic to begin with, having both a short top tube and a relatively slack head tube angle. If yours rides OK in your experience, I woiuldn't go to the trouble of stripping the frame and cold bending it. What you have now is a bike with a steeper head tube angle than the original, and a slightly shorter wheelbase, so it probably turns and rides a little "quicker". A lot of later frames than that one were intentionally made with quicker steering.
Anyway, here's at least one example of a repair of that sort of damage by cold bending. It has not been repainted, even though you can see some cracking where the tubing was bulged.
Yes, it will probably eventually fail somewhere at the point where the tubing walls got bent and then straightened. Such failures in steel tubing frames rarely occur without warning with some prior crack that eventually propagates in a line around the tubing. I only salvaged this one because it is a Frejus, and I don't race it or otherwise ride it hard. It's just a nice older bike that I wanted to preserve in some fashion, but a true repair with new frame tubes would cost way more investment in time and money than it is worth to me as a bike. There are many other bikes that have not been crashed.
Anyway, here's at least one example of a repair of that sort of damage by cold bending. It has not been repainted, even though you can see some cracking where the tubing was bulged.
Yes, it will probably eventually fail somewhere at the point where the tubing walls got bent and then straightened. Such failures in steel tubing frames rarely occur without warning with some prior crack that eventually propagates in a line around the tubing. I only salvaged this one because it is a Frejus, and I don't race it or otherwise ride it hard. It's just a nice older bike that I wanted to preserve in some fashion, but a true repair with new frame tubes would cost way more investment in time and money than it is worth to me as a bike. There are many other bikes that have not been crashed.
08-10-18, 07:19 PM
#35
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No, I'd probably try a combination of frame blocks and jury-rigged straightening tools. After straightening, any damage to the paint could be touched up by careful brushwork with a reasonably close color match enamel. At worst you'd have to prime and repaint the whole frame. It'd be worth it if you could keep the total price under about a hundred dollars. I have some builders around me (Bilenky and Kellogg), but they'd probably say "Don't bother, it's not like it's a Cinelli Supercorsa or anything."
I would do it, but I like these sort of challenges. Not everyone is me. Not everyone is comfortable wrenching and refinishing. Not everyone likes to expend effort of this kind, whereby the end product only has value to one person. If the original owner didn't tell you about the damage and you paid for it to be straight and undamaged, definitely try to get a refund - or at least some cash back to effect whatever repairs you can manage.
I would do it, but I like these sort of challenges. Not everyone is me. Not everyone is comfortable wrenching and refinishing. Not everyone likes to expend effort of this kind, whereby the end product only has value to one person. If the original owner didn't tell you about the damage and you paid for it to be straight and undamaged, definitely try to get a refund - or at least some cash back to effect whatever repairs you can manage.
08-11-18, 07:11 AM
#36
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Your call. You have to do what is best for you, and what you are most comfortable with. Nobody here would bust your chops if you wanted to turn it into a boat anchor or a shop stool.
Obviously, the best solution would be to pull the downtube out and replace it - which would be cost-effective if the frame were made by Colnago, Cinelli, Tommasini, Spectrum, Hetchins, etc. That solution would also cost a crap-ton of money
Out of curiosity, are you going to try for a refund?
Obviously, the best solution would be to pull the downtube out and replace it - which would be cost-effective if the frame were made by Colnago, Cinelli, Tommasini, Spectrum, Hetchins, etc. That solution would also cost a crap-ton of money
Out of curiosity, are you going to try for a refund?
08-11-18, 08:53 AM
#37
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Its been a long time since I shared these pics, but this is an example of @kunsunoke comment. This is a 1972 Motobecane Le Champion. I hit a car that turned in front of meI was doing about 21mph.
P6010917, on Flickr
Damage to the frame
P9051176, on Flickr
Damage to the fork
P9051181, on Flickr
The steerer tube
P1030230, on Flickr
Damage to me, one of several
P9081221, on Flickr
I still have the frame and fork. Do I want to repair? It would not be cost effective but might be from a sentimental perspective. I bought the bike when it was 1 year old. The problem is the paint challenge is too much for me to address.
2008-06-07 15.40.51, on Flickr
2008-06-01 08.52.48, on Flickr
Finding one in this previous condition in my size is like finding a needle in a haystack.
P6010917, on Flickr
Damage to the frame
P9051176, on Flickr
Damage to the fork
P9051181, on Flickr
The steerer tube
P1030230, on Flickr
Damage to me, one of several
P9081221, on Flickr
I still have the frame and fork. Do I want to repair? It would not be cost effective but might be from a sentimental perspective. I bought the bike when it was 1 year old. The problem is the paint challenge is too much for me to address.
2008-06-07 15.40.51, on Flickr
2008-06-01 08.52.48, on FlickrFinding one in this previous condition in my size is like finding a needle in a haystack.
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08-11-18, 09:18 AM
#38
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I've never had much luck cold bending a fork bent that far back, and I've never, ever managed to successfully straighten a bent steerer tube by cold bending.
Steerer needs such precise alignment because of the headset race issues that arise, I'm skeptical it can be done reliably.
08-11-18, 10:40 AM
#39
don't try this at home.
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Perhaps. The analogy of a spring was probably a poor example but as you mentioned, a bike frame constantly flexes and thus acts as a sort of spring. My point was that steel can sustain virtually infinite flex cycles as long as the material isn't pushed past its yield point. Whether the bike in question is compromised in such a way as to be dangerous I can't tell. The subject is way too complicated for me to fully comprehend and without knowing the alloy composition of the metal, the temperature the tube reached during brazing, the thickness of the tube wall where bulged vs the taper of the butting, whether the tubing was drawn or seamed, etc, it's all guess work. If I liked the bike, I'd continue to ride it, but that's just me.
Prior to the yield point the material will deform elastically and will return to its original shape when the applied stress is removed. Once the yield point is passed, some fraction of the deformation will be permanent and non-reversible.
08-11-18, 01:05 PM
#40
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...there's a 60 cm Le Champion on the Bay Area CL for sale right now. But it has a replacement fork.
I've never had much luck cold bending a fork bent that far back, and I've never, ever managed to successfully straighten a bent steerer tube by cold bending.
Steerer needs such precise alignment because of the headset race issues that arise, I'm skeptical it can be done reliably.
I've never had much luck cold bending a fork bent that far back, and I've never, ever managed to successfully straighten a bent steerer tube by cold bending.
Steerer needs such precise alignment because of the headset race issues that arise, I'm skeptical it can be done reliably.
P9051190, on Flickr
Side view
P9051182, on Flickr
Not in the market for one right now anyway. It was replaced with a 1983 Colnago, which is a better ride anyway.
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08-11-18, 03:14 PM
#41
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I no longer have the sellers contact info to call them. It's about a two hour drive from my place, and the only thing I could do is throw the bike in the car, and take a ride there one day. Just knock on the door, and be like "remember me?". I'm sure I could find my way back to the house, but not sure how much it would be worth for me to do that. What if I drive all the way there, and they say "sorry, that's how it was when you bought it". Cause if that happened, it would be a complete waste of time and resources. Plus I would get pissed, and it would ruin my day. If I still had their contact info it would be different, cause I could just easily call them. Lastly, I still like the bike, even though it's junk. I will take a hit on this one. I really should have noticed it before I bought it, and partially blame myself.
Also, I forgot to mention that the components on the frame are worth what I paid for the bike, so it could just be parted out if I want my money back. Pretty sure......I think.
Also, I forgot to mention that the components on the frame are worth what I paid for the bike, so it could just be parted out if I want my money back. Pretty sure......I think.
Last edited by thirdgen; 08-11-18 at 04:14 PM.
08-11-18, 03:38 PM
#42
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Unless I was pretty big/heavy and traversing rough roads at speed fairly often, I would just continue to ride the Maruishi the way it is. It's not going to cause any kind of sudden failure imo, and might serve well for many years, which is plenty long enough to stumble upon another opportunistic purchase.
I would double-check the headset smoothness first though, after removing the stem and front wheel and installing a stem with no bars to simulate the steerer-shortening effect of having the quill expanded in there.
I suspect the headset could now use at least some readjustment, based on my experience with many used bikes.
A headset even slightly tight will have worse of an effect on handling than the slight geometry change, and quickened steering with shortened front-center would be an improvement on perhaps half of the bike out there imo, at least on those that are fitted as a road bike is intended, as here with stock stem length.
I've bought a lot of used bikes and have found hidden defects on most of them, most often defects with the rear wheel, rim cracks or the case of a very-bent rim having been pulled back into true by way of radically-variable spoke tensioning, which can mean quite a lot of work and cost to correct if a similar rim is to be sourced and the wheel re-laced.
I found a very clean old '86 Sirrus last weekend at an annual community benefit flea market up in Foresthill, went to tune it up yesterday but found the rear spoke tensions all amiss when I tried doing a little truing and tensioning. An hour later the wheel was usable, but still with a couple of flat-spots. Thankfully the bike only cost me $25.
I would double-check the headset smoothness first though, after removing the stem and front wheel and installing a stem with no bars to simulate the steerer-shortening effect of having the quill expanded in there.
I suspect the headset could now use at least some readjustment, based on my experience with many used bikes.
A headset even slightly tight will have worse of an effect on handling than the slight geometry change, and quickened steering with shortened front-center would be an improvement on perhaps half of the bike out there imo, at least on those that are fitted as a road bike is intended, as here with stock stem length.
I've bought a lot of used bikes and have found hidden defects on most of them, most often defects with the rear wheel, rim cracks or the case of a very-bent rim having been pulled back into true by way of radically-variable spoke tensioning, which can mean quite a lot of work and cost to correct if a similar rim is to be sourced and the wheel re-laced.
I found a very clean old '86 Sirrus last weekend at an annual community benefit flea market up in Foresthill, went to tune it up yesterday but found the rear spoke tensions all amiss when I tried doing a little truing and tensioning. An hour later the wheel was usable, but still with a couple of flat-spots. Thankfully the bike only cost me $25.
Last edited by dddd; 08-11-18 at 03:51 PM.
08-12-18, 12:36 PM
#43
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Early in my vintage bike hobby I picked up a Peugeot Carbolite 103 mixte for my wife that, after I brought it home, I noticed had exactly the same bulge. Not being terribly smart about these things I didn't think much of it. The frame and fork were otherwise straight. I spent a day swapping out components to make the bike lighter, re-wrapping the handlebars, with the intention of giving her a really dolled-up bike. When I was done I took a test ride in our driveway not realizing I hadn't tightened down the handlebar clamp sufficiently. As I tried to brake, the handlebars slipped and I ran into a chain link fence at maybe five mph. The frame bent nearly in double at the bulge, leaving the fork and front wheel untouched.
I don't doubt that Ishiwata 022 is stronger than Peugeot Carbolite, but I wouldn't trust it.
I don't doubt that Ishiwata 022 is stronger than Peugeot Carbolite, but I wouldn't trust it.
