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What happened to my carbon frame?

Old 09-09-16, 05:30 PM
  #276  
GeneO 
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
And now.. in all fairness, I just found a photo of the seatstays from a bike review.. which makes me feel better about the seatstays.. As Jamis only seems to put a side view photo shot on their website, it wasn't evident that the stays are flattened and fairly wide.. Oh well.. was interesting discussion while it lasted though..

Was going to point that out to you when I got home. They do have an angled view at their site where you can see the stays on that model are wide, but it is not on the model's page.


My CF bike has some fairly skinny seat stays, but they feel really strong. The CF GT Grade has some really skinny seat stays, but they are fiberglass enforced carbon fiber. The bike manufacturers design these bikes to fit their purpose. They can't make steel bike lighter and still maintain their integrity so that is why they shift to carbon fiber - it can be lighter yet as strong as a performance steel frame. Performance steel bikes will be heavier than CF, but also vulnerable to damage in a crash. Same for Aluminum performance bikes. If you want a light high performance bike, that is the risk you take, though it is very minimal (I have never crashed on any bike).

Last edited by GeneO; 09-09-16 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 09-11-16, 10:30 PM
  #277  
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Originally Posted by idiotekniQues
I don't believe crashes are normal nor abnormal, but they are certainly part of riding a bike for many.
Speaking from your vast experience crashing bikes no doubt
If you're crashing you're doing something WRONG! Correct your errors and stop crashing.
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Old 09-11-16, 10:46 PM
  #278  
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Originally Posted by coominya
Speaking from your vast experience crashing bikes no doubt
If you're crashing you're doing something WRONG! Correct your errors and stop crashing.
haven't crashed a bike since i was in junior high. but that changes nothing - not all crashes are the cyclists fault.

with your stupid statement right there you basically absolved any motorist from any fault for causing a crash of a cyclist, since, as you state in a vast generalization - if you are [the cyclist] crashing, they [the cyclist] are doing something wrong and to correct their errors.

makes you a real dick in the cycling community.

Last edited by idiotekniQues; 09-11-16 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 09-11-16, 11:23 PM
  #279  
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Originally Posted by idiotekniQues

with your stupid statement right there you basically absolved any motorist from any fault for causing a crash of a cyclist, since, as you state in a vast generalization... Blah Blah Blah
My statement wasn't a generalization, go back and re-read it. It was directed at one person.
And most crashes don't even involve motorists so why scope lock on them? I haven't crashed a bike as an adult but I had a racer out of a pack thought he could turn directly across in front of me one day and he ended up over my bonnet. No injury to him thankfully, and you could reason that he was tired and distracted by the pace, but he was 100% at fault.

Don't you think time for you to get off the teat and stop looking for people to blame for your errors.
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Old 09-11-16, 11:49 PM
  #280  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
And now.. in all fairness, I just found a photo of the seatstays from a bike review.. which makes me feel better about the seatstays.. As Jamis only seems to put a side view photo shot on their website, it wasn't evident that the stays are flattened and fairly wide.. Oh well.. was interesting discussion while it lasted though
These Jamis Renegade comments were fascinating to me since I went through a lot of the same thoughts when I first saw the product photos. I just got the 2017 Expert last week. I can safely say that in person that bike looks like a brute with proportions that make it seem beefier than the steel version (not saying that's the case—just how it looks). The BB is massive, as is the front fork and head tube. The seat stays only seem spindly relative to the rest of the frame. It's sort of an odd looking bike.
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Old 09-12-16, 10:39 AM
  #281  
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Originally Posted by coominya
If you're crashing you're doing something WRONG! Correct your errors and stop crashing.
You assume that all crashes are caused by "errors." You're wrong.
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Old 09-12-16, 10:44 AM
  #282  
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals
Carbon resistance to impacts:

https://youtu.be/xreZdUBqpJs
Two things. Why did the employee get a new frame if that one was so good.

And of course notice that the force was applied in a manner that the frame SHOULD resist, not a side load.
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Old 09-12-16, 12:27 PM
  #283  
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Originally Posted by idiotekniQues
haven't crashed a bike since i was in junior high. but that changes nothing - not all crashes are the cyclists fault.

with your stupid statement right there you basically absolved any motorist from any fault for causing a crash of a cyclist, since, as you state in a vast generalization - if you are [the cyclist] crashing, they [the cyclist] are doing something wrong and to correct their errors.

makes you a real dick in the cycling community.
I doubt if any material, steel, aluminum, carbon fiber, bamboo, laminated wood... is designed to be durable in the event of a motor vehicle running into it. I don't think the steel vs. CF argument has any point at all in those situations. Who would care if their bike is designed to stand up to a car running over it?

I really doubt the guy was implying that all crashes were avoidable, but that if someone is actually crashing a lot, they should ride safer and smarter, and learn to avoid them. Yes, even learn to avoid, or minimize the chances of, a car running into them by understanding dangerous situations.

Maybe I'm a dick too for encouraging people to ride smarter? And that crashing a lot is not normal?

Last edited by Camilo; 09-12-16 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 09-12-16, 03:15 PM
  #284  
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Originally Posted by benaroundawhile
You assume that all crashes are caused by "errors." You're wrong.
I don't assume that, you assume I said that, when if fact I was speaking about someone specifically. Of course all crashes aren't caused by errors, you can hit by lightning, is that an error in riding? Well if you were hit by lightning because you chose to ride in a storm guess what. You made an error assuming you would be safe riding in the storm.

And the end of the day you must accept partial responsibility for any accident because of the choices you make. Where you ride, how you ride and at what time you ride. And if you are having multiple crashes then obviously you are doing something wrong. If you can't understand this then you have no self-preservation skills.
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Old 09-12-16, 03:26 PM
  #285  
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Originally Posted by coominya
And if you are having multiple crashes then obviously you are doing something wrong. If you can't understand this then you have no self-preservation skills.
Again, if some folks have multiple crashes they don't have to be doing something wrong.

You appear to be blinded by your roadie bias - I get it. It's not about "self-preservation" it's about progressing your skills, pushing envelopes and having more fun.

Sometimes you crash even when you're doing everything right (unless you just don't ride at all that day).

So yeah, your whole "If you're crashing you're doing something WRONG! Correct your errors and stop crashing." bit is silly.
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Old 09-12-16, 04:46 PM
  #286  
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Originally Posted by benaroundawhile
Again, if some folks have multiple crashes they don't have to be doing something wrong.

You appear to be blinded by your roadie bias - I get it. It's not about "self-preservation" it's about progressing your skills, pushing envelopes and having more fun.

Sometimes you crash even when you're doing everything right (unless you just don't ride at all that day).

So yeah, your whole "If you're crashing you're doing something WRONG! Correct your errors and stop crashing." bit is silly.
Okay can we end this stupidity by stipulating that crashes on the road are wholly unrelated to crashes, offroad, and people arguing two different things and trying to be right are either confused or worse?

Some people try so hard to get into fights, and then act so outraged that people are fighting back. it would be comical if these were not the adults which make up modern society, where I have to live.
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Old 09-12-16, 04:51 PM
  #287  
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Originally Posted by Camilo

Maybe I'm a dick too for encouraging people to ride smarter? And that crashing a lot is not normal?
I actually agree with this statement, crashing a lot is not normal. I lived and commuted during rush hour, and trained for about 8 years in Los Angeles Ca and only had one crash, in over 40 years of riding I've only had two crashes, including that one in L.A., those don't include super minor ones resulting in no damage or injuries, but rather involving cars, pedestrians, or objects. The crash in L.A. involved a car resulted in totalling the frame and dislocating my shoulder, and the other which was in Santa Barbara involved a ped which I missed but due to the radical swerve I made bent the front wheel and dislocated my shoulder; neither of the crashes was my fault. I think 2 or 3 accidents over a lifetime would be normal? But people do need to ride smarter, not trying to be a dick either but when I see riders all the time on streets for the last 40 plus years I shake my head and can't believe that half of all cyclists aren't dead! They run stop signs and lights with no regard to either the law or to traffic that has the right away, riding on the wrong side of the road, weaving in and out of traffic without any warnings, drafting cars, break every law on the road that can be broken, this isn't smart riding, just isn't.
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Old 09-12-16, 04:51 PM
  #288  
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This forum is starting to tick me off, and I'm still sort of new here. All of the jackleg comments, snarkiness and insults are juvenile and rude. Stick to constructive comments.
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Old 09-12-16, 04:56 PM
  #289  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs
Okay can we end this stupidity by stipulating that crashes on the road are wholly unrelated to crashes, offroad, and people arguing two different things and trying to be right are either confused or worse?

Some people try so hard to get into fights, and then act so outraged that people are fighting back. it would be comical if these were not the adults which make up modern society, where I have to live.
While the other guy has a roadie bias, his ""If you're crashing you're doing something WRONG! Correct your errors and stop crashing" also applies to folks riding on the road, especially in group, heavy urban traffic, etc.

Accidents/crashing are never fully in one's control. To argue otherwise continues to be silly.

Love this extreme example:

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Old 09-12-16, 04:58 PM
  #290  
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Originally Posted by drlogik
This forum is starting to tick me off, and I'm still sort of new here. All of the jackleg comments, snarkiness and insults are juvenile and rude. Stick to constructive comments.
I would say welcome to the 41, but alas.....
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Old 09-12-16, 05:01 PM
  #291  
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I think this thread has gone way past its usefulness to anybody. Moderator?
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Old 09-12-16, 05:03 PM
  #292  
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Originally Posted by GeneO
I think this thread has gone way past its usefulness to anybody. Moderator?
Why do you continue to read a thread that you seem to claim doesn't interest you anymore?
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Old 09-12-16, 05:04 PM
  #293  
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Originally Posted by drlogik
This forum is starting to tick me off, and I'm still sort of new here. All of the jackleg comments, snarkiness and insults are juvenile and rude. Stick to constructive comments.
Help us out here, like what kind of constructive comments do you have in mind? Maybe you can add a level of intelligence to the conversation that it is obviously missing.
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Old 09-12-16, 05:29 PM
  #294  
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Originally Posted by benaroundawhile
Again, if some folks have multiple crashes they don't have to be doing something wrong.

You appear to be blinded by your roadie bias - I get it. It's not about "self-preservation" it's about progressing your skills, pushing envelopes and having more...
You lot are pretty slow... It wasn't a general statement, it was aimed at one person in particular. I find it facinating how most people only read out of a post what they want to. But since we have started together I will give you an opinion that will really upset you.

No I'm not a roady, I wouldn't ride one of those if you paid me, they are too dangerous. I ride a hybrid but one set up for performance. On the road there are many vehicles and out of all of them the bicycle has the least acceleration has the poorest braking capabilities and is the hardest to see. All it has in its favor is its ability to squeeze into tight places and get out of the way.
So why the hell would I choose the one with the least traction and then ride it in environments where I am surrounded by hundreds of tons of metal moving at high speeds?

I ride roads, but off the main roads where it's quiet. And quite frankly I am sick of hearing roadies whinging and complaining about how car drivers won't respect them and endanger their lives. I'm sick of hearing about how it's all the car drivers fault because "they have the right to be there too"

Just because the government gives you a right doesn't mean you need to exercise it in all cases just to satisfy your personal desires. If you go out on modern busy roads on a bicycle you take your life in your hands. Accept it, and stop looking for someone to blame every time things go wrong.
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Old 09-12-16, 05:32 PM
  #295  
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Originally Posted by coominya
I will give you an opinion that will really upset you.
Wow. You missed the mark once again. Your whine does not upset me in the least. Neither did the rest of your funny claims. "Pity" is the word you're looking for fearful hybrid warrior guy.

p.s. as noted above, not all riding takes place on the road or paved paths...
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Old 09-12-16, 05:48 PM
  #296  
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MOD NOTE to ALL
Please discuss WITHOUT personal insults.
Thanks.
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Old 09-12-16, 06:04 PM
  #297  
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Originally Posted by benaroundawhile
Why do you continue to read a thread that you seem to claim doesn't interest you anymore?
I am interested in the topic, technically. but the direction the topic has taken is pretty much BS. It is not constructive nor informative. Just a rehash of the same old same old.
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Old 09-12-16, 06:29 PM
  #298  
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How's this---people who crash a lot on the road probably are reckless or insufficiently aware. Like the guy in "Getting over mu=y first crash" or whatever ... he said "there was nothing I could have done" because he bulldozed a BMW which darted out of a side street into his path.

Some experienced road riders immediately looked back at their own learning curves, and pointed out that while there are times when a car can come from nowhere, most of the times cars---big, loud, visible---can be seen and sometimes, right of way be damned, a smart cyclist will slow, anticipating a driver pulling out.

All this garbage between, road, hybrid. and offroad riders is just that---garbage. Some of the same guys who ride roads every weekday ride trails on the weekends, and ride hybrids for fun too. The idea that the kind of bike one riders determines or indicates one's personality is absurd.

Crashing offroad is entirely different---I went out (and will again once my shoulder heals) planning on crashing a couple times on every offroad ride... didn't always, but if I try to clear an obstacle I've never cleared before, this might be the time I make it or maybe, next time or the time after that.

But I think we all understood the post was about road riding, and someone wanted to throw in the off-road opinion for no good or constructive reason--like we are talking about boating accidents and the person talks about seaplanes, for some reason ... whatever.

Personally I used to be one of those road bikes (often riding a hybrid, by the way) who didn't care, who ran lights, who pushed limits on the road .. and who learned through injury that that is kind of stupid and lowers one's odds for survival. I learned to ride defensively---everyone who wants to ride in traffic and also live a long time not crippled, should do the same.

Anyone who has a lot of wrecks in traffic probably needs to open his or her eyes, take out the earbuds, learn to look more than ten feet and more than just straight ahead, and learn that a stop light cannot stop a car, but a car running a light can certainly stop a cyclist ... and a cyclist running a light to commute quickly can die quickly.

Eventually it becomes Darwinism, but I'd like to help any rider wise enough to listen and learn.

Yeah, sometimes you get hit and it is entirely the other person's fault---and there was nothing you could possibly have done. But those instances are Really rare in my experience and also talking with and reading posts from other cyclists. Almost all the time there are ways cyclists can ride smarter and not get caught by bad drivers. if that weren't the case ... no one would ride.
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Old 09-12-16, 06:43 PM
  #299  
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Originally Posted by benaroundawhile
Re: Jamis and carbon

"The manufacturing process we pioneered in 2009"
What exactly does this mean?

Production process from what I could find, not hand made one by one but a production process was first done in 1986 by Kestrel that wasn't a lugged design which was done first by Exxon Graftek in 1975. There is nothing that I could find showing that Jamis pioneered some sort of manufacturing process with carbon. All Jamis says is that they pioneered a supposedly new radical manufacturing process that delivers the lightest, stiffest, most aero road bikes...and here's the key phrase...'WE'VE EVER PRODUCED". So in other words it's only new and radical to them and not to the rest of the world.
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Old 09-12-16, 06:44 PM
  #300  
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Originally Posted by Homebrew01
MOD NOTE to ALL
Please discuss WITHOUT personal insults.
Thanks.
Obviously this had no meaning to some people.

benaroundawhile and GeneO please leave this thread.
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