linberl

Oh well then, for the average cyclist or pedestrians we shall judge all motorists by the actions of the very worst. Got it.

Jay Turberville

I have over 15,000 miles on my e-bike. It is a Class III with 750 watts and the power assist stops at 28 mph. I have been passed by strong unassisted riders while on a long downhill stretch where I was cruising at 25 mph. It's only happened once or twice, but it has happened.

BTW, even though I can theoretically cruise at 28 mph many places on my bike, doing so eats up batteries fast. And I carry about 1200 watt/hrs of battery. What I found was that the sweet spot for speed was around 20 mph. I'd be a bit faster going downhill and a bit slower going uphill. This was the sweet spot for me between range and speed of travel.

If I could legally set my e-bike up to have 1500 or 2000 watts of motor power, I would. But I'd still shoot for 20mph or so most of the time. I'd use the extra power to clear intersections more quickly and to better assist with short steep hills.

late

It was people getting together and pushing for change in the Netherlands.

Alan K

I’m happy for them; if they got what they wanted.
When I visited the Netherworld, e-bikes weren’t there. Hopefully, they will coexist peacefully.

US on the other hand, is slightly larger than the Netherlands and there is a great deal of diversity in people, their opinions about what is appropriate or best for them, and lastly and most importantly, our politicians don’t always listen to us, the people who supposedly got them elected.

Alan K

Many already seem to do just that… though I personally, don’t.

Leisesturm

I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all. I am saying it doesn't happen to the degree of wretched excess that some imagine. A 30mph motor is in a completely different league of construction to a 20 mph motor, and overvolted 20mph (250W) motors don't live very long. In the U.S. the Class 1 & 2 speed limit is still 20mph, but motor power can legally be far in excess of 250W (250 - 750) So there is more to be gained from overvolting motors in the U.S. The firmware of a EU mainline Bosch or Shimano motor is way more difficult to access than the open source firmware of a Bafang or Tongshen product. There are vanishingly small numbers of EU riders hotrodding Gazelle e-bikes to 30+ mph. There are more U.S. owners of Luna and Eco-Cycle systems boosting the output of those motors but not the majority. Still, these machines are a far cry from the e-motors in dirtbike chassis that are set up from go to reach 30mph and beyond. I've never seen one on the street, and I live in the very bike dense Portland, OR metro area. I see the entire gamut of what is possible with two wheels on a daily basis. I don't ride the MUP's. IMO they aren't the place to play with speed.

Jay Turberville

This wouldn't surprise me based on my own personal experience riding a Class III, and on two other factors.
1) 28 mph consumes a lot of battery power and that limits range substantially.
2) 28 mph doesn't really improves trip time that much compared to the 20+ mph that is also fairly easy on battery consumption.

Yes. Whoever it is that pushed the legislation tells you a lot about the intent and who the legislation is intended to serve. In the U.S., the three class system was pushed by People for Bikes which is a bicycle industry advocacy group. They want the three class standard because it promotes e-bike adoption and hence e-bike sales. The more states that accept the standard, the easier/better for bike sellers. I suspect that the places with 250 watt limits were not places where bicycle sellers prevailed. But I could be wrong. Some cyclists (and maybe sellers) aren't very keen about e-bikes

(BTW, it doesn't take much R&D at all to make a Class III e-bike..Just about any modern e-bike controller can be set up to limit power, require pedal movement, and set power cutoff limits. When they passed a version of the three class e-bike system in Arizona, It was a simple matter to update my settings so that my bike was/is Class III compliant. MTB disc brakes are plenty good to bring even a heavy e-bike like mine to a rapid stop.)

Jay Turberville

There is a huge variety among e-bikes. So yes, a person needs to be careful about generalizations. Major manufacturers are going to make their systems as proprietary as possible because that maximizes profits. They are going to do all kinds of things in firmware to keep people from making mods because they want to control what battery gets attached and which parts are used to repair or modify the system. They are almost surely concerned about liability issues as well. That said, a clever hot rodder could probably bypass the manufacturer's controller on many system and then take their chances. I wouldn't be at all surprised if many 250 watt motors could easily withstand double the rated wattage for extended periods and even quadruple for shorter bursts. I would depend a LOT on the particular design and the temperature were the e-bike is being operated.

It's also worth keeping in mind that a 250 watt consumption does not equal a 250 watt output. Most electric e-bike motors don't get much better than 80% efficiency. And that's under an ideal load, not the typical load. Even with mid-drive bikes that can benefit from bike gearing that lets them operate more optimally, I wouldn't be at all surprised if mid-drives were frequently operated at 50% efficiency and below. And if the controlling regulation was on power output and not consumption, clever makers could probably tune their controllers so that they output 250 watt in most conditions. If I were making e-bikes, I'd be seriously looking at that so that my e-bike would have superior performance while being compliant. That would mean that they could easily be consuming double and triple that wattage - by design.- and still be compliant. If that is the case, those would be good bikes to chose for stealth hot-rodding because the system would be designed to use and waste 250-500 watts of power (heat)..

Jay Turberville

Well, they are more efficient in a greater number of situation because a good choice of gearing lets the motor operate at an efficient RPM for the given load. You could do that with a high RPM/low torque motor or a low RPM high torque motor. Higher RPMs are usually chosen because those motors can be made to be smaller and more lightweight.

And keep in mind that there are two types of hub drive motors, direct drive and planetary gear drive.

Direct drives can use ferro fluids to greatly increase conduction from the stators to the rotating magnets attached to the housing (the stators receive the electric current and are stationary relative to the hub motor axle.) This is one of the reasons that hot-rodders generally prefer direct drive hub motors. They can effectively use a lot of power and don't have to rely on relatively weak bicycle components to deliver the power.

Planetary gear drive motors don't generally have their rotating magnets so directly exposed to ambient air. So they inherently have a harder time shedding heat. Statorade doesn't really help them out for that reason. Also, at least some of their planetary gears are generally made of nylon plastic which softens when the motor gets hot making these motors further susceptible to failure from heat. So geared hub motors enerally less robust and not good choices for hot-rodding.

I used a direct drive (with Statorade - I live in a hot desert climate and ride up hills) to build my e-bike. It is heavier, but the big benefit is that is is durable. I've put 15,000 miles or so on it so far with no motor failures.

late

Our history is full of groups that worked towards a goal, and got there. Gays, women, Blacks, Unions, etc.

Smaug1

You are right on point 1). Re. point 2) I was riding across town last night. 20 mph on my eMoped felt like I was just crawling along. Going to 25 felt a lot faster and safer. At 20 mph, every car is going to pass me, even on back streets. At 25-30, which my eMoped can reach, it's not so. (at least on back streets) That's some justification to use double the power at 28 mph compared to 20 mph.

Also, i just ran the numbers. I rode 11 miles last night; 5.5 miles each way. At 28 mph, that takes 23.5 minutes. At 20 mph, that takes 33 minutes. Going 28 mph saves 42% travel time. It's significant. Worth the Watt-Hours? That's up to you, but I guess it depends on how far you're traveling.

For my commute, 2 miles each way, it only saves 2 minutes per commute leg. Same percentage but more palatable to only lose 2 minutes.

The problem with bike advocacy groups is that they are not big enough, relative to the population of folks who want the opposite of what they want. (motorists) Example, if my city's residents were polled as an election topic whether to put $5M into bike infrastructure or repave some roads in poor shape, they will pick the roads every time. Let's say the roads are taken care of and the choice is between a new overpass or roundabout and protected bike lanes? Overpass will will every time, because EVERYBODY here drives, but only maybe 5% ride a bike for transportation.

Alan K

I would say that it’s a slow “work in progress”, and nothing wrong with slow progress as long as it is in the right direction!
[Sometimes digging slowly ourselves into a hole also becomes part of the process with the appearance of progress, and that is a different matter.]

Alan K

Democracy in action, you say as if it’s a bad thing!
I know that some people think that we are living in a time where our system of governance looks more like fascism but if we were, 5% well-connected people would have had much easier time pushing their wishes down the throats of the 95% majority.

In my town, a lot of people ride bicycles. A few years ago the city floated an idea to build another overpass on a highway, less than a mile away from an existing one for a cost of over a million $. Some people objected, not to discourage bicycling in town, but to them this addition seemed unnecessary. It was supported by the majority and we have a new overpass - a pretty one, art deco and all that. 👌

polyrhythmia

Rider power should be at least 1/3 of the total power in my books. More than that and I feel like I'm not really making any difference. And if the system fails, I would have to pedal a heavy bike. Rider assisted motorcycle? Nope.

2old

< 45 pounds (with battery); 30++ mph, easily keeps up with town traffic; pedals OK, but has never been necessary (sometimes I pedal without the motor for extra exercise).

Smaug1

Nice; looks like a fair weather rig. (electronics exposed, rim brakes) Direct-drive motor?
I had a colleague who built one. He said it didn't have much torque but was terrifyingly fast, on the order of 45 mph.

2old

Thanks; It isn't finished yet because I haven't figured out whether to hide the wires under some kind of frame bag or shorten them. It's a project for a rainy day which we don't get in CA. This bike accelerates pretty fast @ 52V. Electric motors, usually rated as 3T - 12T (maybe higher but that's the highest I've seen) have a torque curve that can be "adjusted" to low end power (12T or ?) or high speed (3T or ?). As usual, Mother Nature isn't very forgiving. You get one or the other or a little of both.

jon c. 

Even among cyclists there are differing opinions. Some don't want bicycle infrastructure as they don't believe in it. Others don't feel it is necessarily a top priority. I think my city needs better bike infrastructure but I also think there are a lot of places where adding sidewalks would be a better use of limited funds. If you asked me to make the choice, I'd go with sidewalks.

Smaug1

Once outside the city center, where a not a lot of pedestrians actually use sidewalks, I think they could just maintain the sidewalks to be smooth and clean and call them "multi-use paths" instead of "sidewalks". Maybe divide it into 3 lanes, as they do in Europe?

In the city center, there needs to be separate bike lanes and sidewalks, for everyone to be safe.

mschwett 

around here there aren’t many places without sidewalks (how do you get to the property without driving there and parking within it?) but where pedestrian and bicycle volumes are so low to make this a non-rhetorical question, a single shared path isn’t a bad idea. certainly hard to justify a sidewalk and a separated bike lane in a case like this other than for purely recreational purposes. sight lines become a major issue with this type of design, depending on the placement of landscaping, driveway, curb cuts.

Jay Turberville

IMO, the main issue isn't whether a car passes you or not so much as it is the speed differential when/as it does so. This is why I try to avoid any road with greater than a 35 mph speed limit. I want the car to pass me relatively slowly giving its driver much more time to see and avoid me.

The numbers you ran would only be realistic if there were no stops, yields or turns on your trip. When you add in the time to stop, the time at a stop, the time to slow down, and the time to get back up to speed - the difference in your top speed matters less and less. As an example, a few nights ago I did a 4 mile trip up and back to pick up some take-out burgers on my ebike. The route to the restaurant was mostly downhill. Net descent about 210 feet. My max speed was 29.8 mph (downhill - heavy bike). But looking at my speed graph, I had four full stops and five more points where I slowed down to 10 mph or so - probably turns. My average speed was 17.4 mph. Average moving speed 19.2 mph. Average heart rate 98 bmp.

My route back was slightly different. and was 0.1 miles longer. My max speed was 25.9 mph (uphill - heavy bike). I had fewer stops at only two and had to slow to 10 mph only twice. My average speed was 17.6 mph. Average moving speed was 18.2 mph. Average heart rate was 109 bmp.

Real world travel times get clobbered by slowing and stopping. Now, if I had limited my top speed on the way back to 20 mph and maxed out my speed with full power on the way to the restaurant, I'm sure the downhill trip would have shown a bigger gap. But it would be a couple minutes or so. And as a practical matter in day-to-day riding my e-bike, those few minutes just don't seem to be worth much.

Before retiring, on my long commute I'd go 16 miles and it would take me about 52-55 minutes on average by ebike while going about 2 miles further than the trip by car to avoid high speed roads. Typical ebike speeds were 20-25 mph. That's a 17.5 mph average.

By car I'd travel 14 miles and it would take me 30 minutes. Typical speed were 50-55 mph. That's a 28 mph average. Starts, stops and turns eat into travel times in a huge way. One thing that riding a bike and even an ebike tends to teach you is that rushing has far less benefit than many people seem to think. And this is, I believe, at least partly why most ebikers with Class 3 ebikes are not constantly going 28 mph. And know that's one of my reasons.

Jay Turberville

Is that based on personal experience? My experience is quite different. That may be because my ebike is a Class 3 and I have to at least move the pedals to get the motor assist going. That effort seems to trick my brain into perceiving that it's providing all the power if I'm putting any substantial effort into pedaling. And I usually am doing that. I have to actually remind myself that the motor is doing the work by looking at the power meter readout and bike speeds. Psychologically it gets easy to be fooled. But I've ridden bikes all my life and its just natural for me to pedal while riding. It feels very odd if I don't. So your 1/3 power thing doesn't work for me at all. Even when consciously taking it easy on the ebike, I run only at about 10-20% lower effort (based on heartrate) than on my regular unassisted bike.

Jay Turberville

So, for SoCal, not a legal ebike. Cops probably won't bother you if you don't act crazy with it though. Ride it like a bicycle and not a motorcycle and you'll probably draw very little attention.

But if you have any accumulated wealth, you might want to seriously consider the liability exposure, and additional civil citations possible in the event of an accident that draws attention to you.

In the event that you do want to make it a legal Class 3, You'll probably want a 53 tooth chainring and an 11, 12 ... sprocket on the back.

2old

I rode a previous iteration around town for years without a second glance from the constabulary who seemed clueless about "e". "Fortunately" it's become more dangerous on the roads so that almost all my riding is MTB (either "e" or Plain Jane).

Bonzo Banana

We will certainly agree to disagree I certainly don't agree with your points and its plain and simple for anyone to see in Europe that you have wildly different ebikes from tiny folding ebikes with batteries barely over 100Wh to huge e-mountain bikes delivering up to 100Nm of torque all claiming to be 250W. It is such a strange situation that you don't see in other markets and again I'm not writing anything here debatable to any sensible or fair individual. I'm certainly not the first person to question 250W and certainly won't be the last and have already given links to an ebike expert and author who discusses the whole fake wattage situation. In the UK where this is discussed you often get two types of people who abusively deny the reality of the situation and it mostly appears to be either people involved in selling high power mid-drive ebikes or those that own them. It is typically those with some pre-bias. The UK government site and other sites around Europe are also very confused about the legislation because what they write doesn't match the certification. It's just an utter farce and unworkable. I'm still hoping the UK will form its own ebike certification system that is honest, easily legislated and enforced and perhaps suits the UK market better i.e. a 20mph assistance speed to match the maximum speed on many urban roads. There is absolutely no reason not to focus the certification on the controller of the ebike, the part of the ebike that controls the wattage supplied to the motor. It's madness to put a 250W sticker on a motor that can take anywhere from about 200-2500W such is the case with direct drive hub motors. We just need competent non-corrupt legislation that doesn't try to manipulate the market place.

https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules

What counts as an EAPC

An EAPC must have pedals that can be used to propel it.

It must show either:

• the power output
• the manufacturer of the motor

It must also show either:

• the battery’s voltage
• the maximum speed of the bike

Its electric motor:

• must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
• should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph

An EAPC can have more than 2 wheels (for example, a tricycle).