Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

Which spokes for touring?

Notices
Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

Which spokes for touring?

Old 02-08-19, 05:41 PM
  #1  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Which spokes for touring?

I'm 230 lb and touring about 600 mi on a 1980s hardtail MTB. I've got NOS rims and NOS hubs from the era. Which spokes should I choose? I'll be camping, not staying in hotels, so I'll be loaded with camping and cooking gear. I do not have the weight of all of the gear yet.

I was considering Sapim Strong. But I always hear how great Phil Wood's hubs are, so are his spokes exceptional as well?
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-08-19, 06:17 PM
  #2  
cyccommute 
Mad bike riding scientist
 
cyccommute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274

Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones

Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,093 Times in 2,325 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
I'm 230 lb and touring about 600 mi on a 1980s hardtail MTB. I've got NOS rims and NOS hubs from the era. Which spokes should I choose? I'll be camping, not staying in hotels, so I'll be loaded with camping and cooking gear. I do not have the weight of all of the gear yet.

I was considering Sapim Strong. But I always hear how great Phil Wood's hubs are, so are his spokes exceptional as well?
Sapim Strong, DT Alpine III, Pillar PSR and Wheelsmith DH13 all share similar traits. They have a heavier elbow that increases strength significantly. I’ve used the Pillar and Alpine III for a long time. Both are good spokes, although a little more expensive.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!



cyccommute is offline  
Old 02-08-19, 07:02 PM
  #3  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
With an 80s hardtail, I assume that means 26 inch wheel and 36 spokes, probably a 2 inch wide tire that gives a good cushioned ride without too much road shock. In that case I would think that a 2.0/1.8 or 1.7/2.0 spoke would also work out ok. But if you are doing off road in rough terrain with that kind of weight on the wheels, then one of the more robust spokes suggested by cyccommute might be in order.

I carry my spare spokes in my seatpost, held in with a wine cork. The cork dried out and shrunk a bit, I wrapped electrical tape around the cork to make it fit tighter.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-08-19, 07:14 PM
  #4  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
With an 80s hardtail, I assume that means 26 inch wheel and 36 spokes, probably a 2 inch wide tire that gives a good cushioned ride without too much road shock. In that case I would think that a 2.0/1.8 or 1.7/2.0 spoke would also work out ok. But if you are doing off road in rough terrain with that kind of weight on the wheels, then one of the more robust spokes suggested by cyccommute might be in order.

I carry my spare spokes in my seatpost, held in with a wine cork. The cork dried out and shrunk a bit, I wrapped electrical tape around the cork to make it fit tighter.
Good idea about seat post storage. I've broken a few spokes which were 1980s 2.0 steel just from daily commuting, so I wanted to go crazy with strength for touring. You nailed it: 26", 36h, and 2.10" tires. I love the ride. I plan on touring on paved roads and occasionally dirt or gravel, but nothing like actual mountain biking.

So what is the benefit of the Phil Wood spokes if any?
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-08-19, 07:31 PM
  #5  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
I was unaware that Phil Wood made spokes. I usually use Wheelsmith DB-14 that are 2.0/1.7/2.0 mm.

Is this a 126 spaced rear dropout bike, or something wider? My errand bike is 135mm rear spacing, but that is a 1994 mountain bike. An 80s bike might mean something narrower with a freewheel?
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-08-19, 07:40 PM
  #6  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I was unaware that Phil Wood made spokes. I usually use Wheelsmith DB-14 that are 2.0/1.7/2.0 mm.

Is this a 126 spaced rear dropout bike, or something wider? My errand bike is 135mm rear spacing, but that is a 1994 mountain bike. An 80s bike might mean something narrower with a freewheel?
Yes, it's a Japanese freewheel and steel hub. When the wheel is fastened it's about 135 mm inside from dropout to dropout.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-08-19, 08:34 PM
  #7  
GamblerGORD53
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,457

Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1222 Post(s)
Liked 314 Times in 241 Posts
I don't have derailleurs anymore, but have used WH13 spokes on several IGH wheels. They are UN-breakable IMO.
I would use them on the drive side for sure at least. The DS head is what breaks 90% of the time, as far as I have seen with others.
I have also used DT pro lock brass nipples, cost 3x as much, but are 10 times as good. IMO ... Spokes are not the place to apply good enough.
I ride at 290 lbs total on tour, 8,100 miles so far. MY SA XL-FDD front hub has 24,000 trouble free miles, with 2.3 on both sides..
My Rohloff14 has 32 straight 2.0 DT Swiss spokes that have survived so far.
GamblerGORD53 is offline  
Old 02-08-19, 09:38 PM
  #8  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
I have also used DT pro lock brass nipples, cost 3x as much, but are 10 times as good.
Good point. I had not thought of the nipple issue.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 12:23 AM
  #9  
geoffs
Full Member
 
geoffs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 322

Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha Co-pilot, Habanero custom commuter, Seven Axiom SL, Seven Axiom SLX, Blom Track

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts


CK hubs 36h, lightbicycle RG722 rims and cx-rays
Standard 14/15/14 sapim or DT spokes are fine. We’re using cx-ray spokes on the wheels on our tandem for touring and the are holding up fine. Our rolling weight is 175kg so i think we weigh a bit more. All really thick spokes like Sapim strong, DT Alpine etc do is shift the point to failure to the rim of hub
geoffs is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 07:45 AM
  #10  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb
Yes, it's a Japanese freewheel and steel hub. When the wheel is fastened it's about 135 mm inside from dropout to dropout.
At the weight you are looking at, a standard cup and cone freewheel type hub could have a weak axle. If a 135mm hub fits well into the frame, the newer cassette type steel axle Shimano freehubs like a Deore or an older design XT hub might be better. I am running Shimano XT M756, M756A , and M760 steel axle rear hubs on three bikes. A lot of the newer Aluminum axle XT hubs have also been used for touring but I have a strong preference for the older design steel axle hubs that use 1/4 inch ball bearings.

You mentioned Phil hubs. A friend of mine tours on an older freewheel type Phil hub and he is quite happy with it. That design also overcomes the weak axle problem, thus that would also be a good choice.

It is getting harder to find 36 hole hubs that are non-disc that are robust enough for touring. But for your weight, I would not drop down to 32 spokes in back. I think 32 in front which takes less weight is ok, but for rear I think 36 is best.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 09:33 AM
  #11  
djb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Montreal Canada
Posts: 13,192
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2732 Post(s)
Liked 955 Times in 785 Posts
I'm a lightweight in comparison, but given you are getting these wheels built, consider some newer rims. My take is that modern rims are a lot stronger than 80s stuff.
someone like cycco or others with wheel building experience and heavier than me can chime in with authority.

I suspect that you could find good prices on 36h modern rims that in the long run, would be worth spending the money on now.
wheel builder competency and expertise is always going to be a big factor here also.
djb is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 10:57 AM
  #12  
Nessism
Senior Member
 
Nessism's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 3,059

Bikes: Homebuilt steel

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2181 Post(s)
Liked 419 Times in 332 Posts
Personally, I'd use a cassette style hub for the proven reliability. 36h and freewheel strike me as an oximoron if durability is the main focus. Regardless though, before ordering spokes larger than 2.0 be sure your hub supports them. A lot of hubs cap out at 2.0 for the hole size in the flange.
Nessism is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 11:11 AM
  #13  
tyrion
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077

Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times in 972 Posts
Originally Posted by geoffs

CK hubs 36h, lightbicycle RG722 rims and cx-rays
Standard 14/15/14 sapim or DT spokes are fine.
Did you special order them those rims with 36 holes? Looking at lightbicyle website, there's no option for 36 holes in any of their rims.
tyrion is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 01:09 PM
  #14  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
Lots of them .. My 700c touring wheels, had 40 front , 48 rear*, so, 88 total , 90 if you bring a couple spares ...

* hub, old, Phil Wood, Freewheel,,, 10 years, several multi-month self supported tours 'Across the Pond'..






Phil Wood makes a wheel builder's spoke threading machine it also cuts them to desired length , so they get long un threaded spokes (from someone )






....

Last edited by fietsbob; 02-09-19 at 01:18 PM.
fietsbob is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 01:17 PM
  #15  
seeker333
-
 
seeker333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,865

Bikes: yes!

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 36 Posts
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I was unaware that Phil Wood made spokes. I usually use Wheelsmith DB-14 that are 2.0/1.7/2.0 mm...
PW makes and has sold for many years a spoke machine, which some LBS used to make their own custom length spokes. Sadly nowadays some LBS don't even sell spokes, about all they can do is sell you a QBP distributed wheel, or a complete expensive wheelset.

I second your recommendation of Wheelsmith DB spokes, they are excellent.
seeker333 is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 01:29 PM
  #16  
Tourist in MSN
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,112

Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.

Mentioned: 47 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3426 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times in 1,122 Posts
Originally Posted by seeker333
PW makes and has sold for many years a spoke machine, which some LBS used to make their own custom length spokes. Sadly nowadays some LBS don't even sell spokes, about all they can do is sell you a QBP distributed wheel, or a complete expensive wheelset.

I second your recommendation of Wheelsmith DB spokes, they are excellent.
I was aware of the thread cutting machine, I think about six of my wheels have spokes with threads cut that way while I waited for them to cut the threads, the bike shop I bought them at stocked fewer spoke sizes because they could cut to custom length. But the OP implied that they made spokes.

That shop where I had them cut to length moved out of town, thus I now buy my spokes on line.
Tourist in MSN is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 01:32 PM
  #17  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,354 Times in 861 Posts
Or, another wholesale bike shop supplier built wheelset..

they can be a good deal because all the parts are at the wholesalers cost..

In High summer a small busy shop , which has to survive over the winter from Summer's sales..

With a repair queue, other than a spoke replacement, may not have the time for a custom wheel rebuild , for a week,

so you may get, sold, as it has happened a wheel off a new bike on display,

or a basic repair wheel .... your fancy hub cut out of the wheel for you to mail home ....








.....
fietsbob is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 01:52 PM
  #18  
geoffs
Full Member
 
geoffs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sydney
Posts: 322

Bikes: Co-Motion Mocha Co-pilot, Habanero custom commuter, Seven Axiom SL, Seven Axiom SLX, Blom Track

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 79 Post(s)
Liked 12 Times in 10 Posts
Originally Posted by tyrion
Did you special order them those rims with 36 holes? Looking at lightbicyle website, there's no option for 36 holes in any of their rims.
they will do a custom layup for an extra $20
standard rim weight is 380g ours weigh 500g
incredibly strong
geoffs is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 02:19 PM
  #19  
tyrion
Senior Member
 
tyrion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,077

Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet

Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times in 972 Posts
Originally Posted by geoffs

they will do a custom layup for an extra $20
standard rim weight is 380g ours weigh 500g
incredibly strong
Interesting. Thanks.
tyrion is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 04:08 PM
  #20  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
[QUOTE=Tourist in MSN;20786317]At the weight you are looking at, a standard cup and cone freewheel type hub could have a weak axle. If a 135mm hub fits well into the frame, the newer cassette type steel axle Shimano freehubs like a Deore or an older design XT hub might be better. I am running Shimano XT M756, M756A , and M760 steel axle rear hubs on three bikes. A lot of the newer Aluminum axle XT hubs have also been used for touring but I have a strong preference for the older design steel axle hubs that use 1/4 inch ball bearings.[\QUOTE]

I'm using a steel axle. One has gotten bent before but it was years old (like 20), so I'm not sure if it's an issue (and I never noticed it until I went to service the bearings). But I am riding a lot more now and starting to tour, so it's something I'll keep my eye on. This is an experiment for me too to see if these cups and cones don't pit too soon. I'm happy replacing the bearings as part of maintenance, and even axles sometimes (not really expensive and I have the tools), but the cups are not serviceable as far as I can see. I mean maybe with a Dremel but I'm not sure if after using a Dremel on a cup the hardening is compromised.

I really like the old freewheel stuff from Japan. I have a few NOS just to stare at them

It is true that cassettes or freehubs may be easier and smarter, so I'm open. For now though I will wait to see what happens.

[QUOTE=Tourist in MSN;20786317]You mentioned Phil hubs. A friend of mine tours on an older freewheel type Phil hub and he is quite happy with it. That design also overcomes the weak axle problem, thus that would also be a good choice.[\QUOTE]

Does Phil still make those freewheels? I don't know all the terminology, so I don't see them on their site under a freewheel search.



Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
It is getting harder to find 36 hole hubs that are non-disc that are robust enough for touring. But for your weight, I would not drop down to 32 spokes in back. I think 32 in front which takes less weight is ok, but for rear I think 36 is best.
36h in front, high flange. 36h in back, low flange.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 04:26 PM
  #21  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by geoffs


CK hubs 36h, lightbicycle RG722 rims and cx-rays
Standard 14/15/14 sapim or DT spokes are fine. We’re using cx-ray spokes on the wheels on our tandem for touring and the are holding up fine. Our rolling weight is 175kg so i think we weigh a bit more. All really thick spokes like Sapim strong, DT Alpine etc do is shift the point to failure to the rim of hub
I had not thought of that, but it makes sense.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 04:33 PM
  #22  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by djb
I'm a lightweight in comparison, but given you are getting these wheels built, consider some newer rims. My take is that modern rims are a lot stronger than 80s stuff.
someone like cycco or others with wheel building experience and heavier than me can chime in with authority.

I suspect that you could find good prices on 36h modern rims that in the long run, would be worth spending the money on now.
wheel builder competency and expertise is always going to be a big factor here also.
That's probably true. I've looked at Rhyno Lite's and Velocity NoBS, but I think they're ugly. I have not come around (aesthetically) to any modern rims I've seen yet. For one thing I like a 32 mm wide rim and a shiny high polish. Like most I want function and beauty. If I get quick rim failure, I'll look at others, so I'm open to suggestions.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 04:35 PM
  #23  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Nessism
Personally, I'd use a cassette style hub for the proven reliability. 36h and freewheel strike me as an oximoron if durability is the main focus. Regardless though, before ordering spokes larger than 2.0 be sure your hub supports them. A lot of hubs cap out at 2.0 for the hole size in the flange.
Yeah, I checked on that first and these 80s hubs apparently can take 2.3 mm spokes. I don't have any pins to double check.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 04:36 PM
  #24  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob
Lots of them .. My 700c touring wheels, had 40 front , 48 rear*, so, 88 total , 90 if you bring a couple spares ...

* hub, old, Phil Wood, Freewheel,,, 10 years, several multi-month self supported tours 'Across the Pond'..






Phil Wood makes a wheel builder's spoke threading machine it also cuts them to desired length , so they get long un threaded spokes (from someone )






....
Nice. Would like to see it all.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  
Old 02-09-19, 04:37 PM
  #25  
kjaioqhbkqb
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Fremont, CO
Posts: 81
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 49 Post(s)
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I was aware of the thread cutting machine, I think about six of my wheels have spokes with threads cut that way while I waited for them to cut the threads, the bike shop I bought them at stocked fewer spoke sizes because they could cut to custom length. But the OP implied that they made spokes.

That shop where I had them cut to length moved out of town, thus I now buy my spokes on line.

Here's a link to the spokes: Phil Wood & Co.
kjaioqhbkqb is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.