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Seattle wants to try something new...

Old 07-23-19, 03:42 PM
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genec
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Seattle wants to try something new...



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Seattle could be next to try Dutch-style bike-friendly intersection design




This Beacon Hill intersection has drawn particular criticism from cyclists because the city opted to end the bike lane ahead of the intersection to make room for a vehicle turn lane, as first reported by Seattle Bike Blog. But the sudden disappearance of safety is a daily fact of life for many people riding bikes.

Now, a handful of American cities are trying a new approach to combat that risk: a protected intersection. Seattle could be among the next cities to try the design.
Hmmm. Dutch bike intersections... what happens next?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/seattle-could-be-next-to-try-dutch-style-bike-friendly-intersection-design/?utm_source=marketingcloud&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=TSA_072319205742+Safer+intersection+design+ could+help+protect+Seattle%e2%80%99s+bicyclists_7_23_2019&utm_term=Active%20subscriber
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Old 07-23-19, 09:59 PM
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Portland has had these for years. New ones get painted up everywhere a cyclist gets killed. I'm frankly baffled by all the fuss because I haven't found it that difficult to stay alive in traffic without all that green.
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Old 07-23-19, 11:05 PM
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I rode the whole way thru Seattle a couple days last summer. Some of it twice, downtown, Green Lake and the industrial.
I saw NO need for such shenanigans or road HOGGING.
It would be nice if they sawed off the damn hills. LOL
How is the aqueduct demolition coming??
And the same in Portland.

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Old 07-24-19, 04:24 AM
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This could all be more about the more casual cyclist... the occasional rider or someone who would never bother being on a cycling forum. A few years back there was a chart that showed that there is a type of person out there that would ride, if there were marginal improvements. Of course here on the forum, most everyone is already a dedicated cyclist... and will ride in just about any situation... and do so aggressively. Oddly, that is not the definition of the typical Dutch bicycle rider... they don't necessarily consider themselves "cyclists," in spite of likely using bicycles on a regular basis. Their environment just makes it easy to ride a bike from A to B.

US, kitted up, helmeted, cyclists willing and able to take on fast motor traffic are considered something of an "anomaly" to the Dutch or other nations where cycling as transportation is a regular thing.

Introduction of Dutch like intersections... may help encourage more casual cyclists... and perhaps (don't hold your breath here) alert motorists to the potential of cyclists.

Only time will tell. Apparently more painted lanes, and some protected lanes did increase cycling in NYC. So, "paint it, and they will come?"
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Old 07-24-19, 04:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53
I rode the whole way thru Seattle a couple days last summer. Some of it twice, downtown, Green Lake and the industrial.
I saw NO need for such shenanigans or road HOGGING.
It would be nice if they sawed off the damn hills. LOL
How is the aqueduct demolition coming??
And the same in Portland.
As far as Seattle... I have yet to hit the Burke Gilman... which I hear is quite nice. I'm just not there, with my bike, and time to go for a ride. I gotta make the time. I am usually going through Seattle, to somewhere else.
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Old 07-24-19, 06:04 AM
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Dutch styled bike lanes. It is a Dutch intersection or it is not. Dutch bicycle infrastructure reduces bicycle motor vehicle collisions by diverting motor vehicles and bicycles away from each other at the intersections. This Dutch styled paint job does not do this.
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Old 07-24-19, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
US, kitted up, helmeted, cyclists willing and able to take on fast motor traffic are considered something of an "anomaly" to the Dutch or other nations where cycling as transportation is a regular thing.

Only time will tell. Apparently more painted lanes, and some protected lanes did increase cycling in NYC. So, "paint it, and they will come?"
US, kitted up, helmeted, cyclists willing and able to take on fast motor traffic are considered something of an "anomaly" to the non-enthusiastic bicycle riding general public in the U.S., where cycling as transportation is NOT a regular thing.

Yes, cycling increased in NYC, but by how much; was it from something like 0.6% to 0.8% of the commuters?

The so-called increase is not impressive nor convincing evidence of the benefits to NYC from its bicycle infrastructure program, especially when it is likely that much of any shift in transportation mode in NYC to bicycling was from already existing public transit, rather than from privately owned motor vehicles.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 07-24-19 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 07-24-19, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Hmmm. Dutch bike intersections... what happens next?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...e%20subscriber
I'm a life long cyclist and have no idea what those markings mean. I'm not smart enough to be saved
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Old 07-24-19, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Yes, cycling increased in NYC, but by how much; was it from something like 0.6% to 0.8% of the commuters?
No, it was not.

-mr. bill
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Old 07-24-19, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
No, it was not.

-mr. bill
1990 to 2014: 340%
2011 to 2013: 33.8%
2014 to 2016: 9%
https://www.amny.com/amp/transit/cyc...-nyc-1.17556903

but I expect any kind of data to be scoffed at anyways.
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Old 07-24-19, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
1990 to 2014: 340%
2011 to 2013: 33.8%
2014 to 2016: 9%
https://www.amny.com/amp/transit/cyc...-nyc-1.17556903

but I expect any kind of data to be scoffed at anyways.
Of course such so-called data will be scoffed at when the growth is only given in percentage increases from an inconsequential total to an insignificant total of the transportation mix.
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Old 07-25-19, 06:10 AM
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None of this has ANYTHING to do with Dutch style intersections.

I scoff at your "New York City," and your two made up small numbers, and your dateless "statistic":





-mr. bill

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Old 07-25-19, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Hmmm. Dutch bike intersections... what happens next?

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle...e%20subscriber
I was rather confused by the picture and how these intersections are supposed to work. Then I read the article. That's, without a doubt, the dumbest thing every conceived! It's the "wait-cross-wait-cross" method of left turn and it's just plain dumb. Protected lanes aren't anything to crow about either, especially the way in which all cyclists are confined to the ghetto of that lane which is usually poorly maintained and/or far too narrow. But making us do "wait-cross-wait-cross" is adding insult to injury.

Frankly, I like the idea that the bike lane disappears at the intersection. If I'm going straight through, I just ride straight through. If I'm turning right, I turn right. If I'm turning left, I merge over into the left turn lane, get in line and turn left. Protected lanes force me to either merge with traffic a block early...and suffer the slings and arrows...or do the fraidy cat "wait-cross-wait-cross". It ain't progress. It's going backwards.
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Old 07-25-19, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Frankly, I like the idea that the bike lane disappears at the intersection. If I'm going straight through, I just ride straight through. If I'm turning right, I turn right. If I'm turning left, I merge over into the left turn lane, get in line
...AND WAIT for the left turn arrow to turn green...

and turn left. Protected lanes force me to either merge with traffic a block early...and suffer the slings and arrows...or do the fraidy cat "wait-cross-wait-cross". It ain't progress. It's going backwards.
So you are a fraidy cat who fears slings and arrows?

But yeah, let's optimize for the people on bikes riding in counter-clockwise circles.

-mr. bill
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Old 07-25-19, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
...AND WAIT for the left turn arrow to turn green...
Or for traffic to clear or just do it like the cars do. My point is that I don't want to be forced into crossing crosswalks to wait for the next light cycle.

Originally Posted by mr_bill
So you are a fraidy cat who fears slings and arrows?
I suffer the slings and arrows because I'm not a fraidy cat. I rather not have to suffer the slings and arrows but when one of those damned protected lanes are around woe be it to the cyclist who tries to ride like a vehicle.

Originally Posted by mr_bill
But yeah, let's optimize for the people on bikes riding in counter-clockwise circles.

-mr. bill
Huh?
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Old 07-25-19, 11:05 AM
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I was rather confused by the picture and how these intersections are supposed to work. Then I read the article. That's, without a doubt, the dumbest thing every conceived! It's the "wait-cross-wait-cross" method of left turn and it's just plain dumb. Protected lanes aren't anything to crow about either, especially the way in which all cyclists are confined to the ghetto of that lane which is usually poorly maintained and/or far too narrow. But making us do "wait-cross-wait-cross" is adding insult to injury.

Frankly, I like the idea that the bike lane disappears at the intersection. If I'm going straight through, I just ride straight through. If I'm turning right, I turn right. If I'm turning left, I merge over into the left turn lane, get in line and turn left. Protected lanes force me to either merge with traffic a block early...and suffer the slings and arrows...or do the fraidy cat "wait-cross-wait-cross". It ain't progress. It's going backwards.
Yes this intersections design is the dumbest most convoluted I have seen. In accident studies the time spent on the road has allot to do with the accident rate. This intersection almost guarantees extended time spent in the most dangerous place for bicyclist.
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Old 07-25-19, 11:24 AM
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I've used a green box in a town near me. I think it works pretty well


coming from the other direction this is how they handle the same crossing of Mass. Ave.

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Old 07-25-19, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6
I've used a green box in a town near me. I think it works pretty well
Your first video demonstrates the issue I have exactly. If you had just turned in the left turn lane, you'd be down the road by 30 seconds to a minute instead of waiting for the light to cycle. If I had to do this for multiple lights, it would drive me nuts.

Additionally, I don't understand this idea of putting bikes at the front of traffic. It is safer for the bicyclist and the driver to not be the one passed or the one doing the passing. I'd much rather be at the end of a line of cars going through a light than at the beginning.
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Old 07-25-19, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
I was rather confused by the picture and how these intersections are supposed to work. Then I read the article. That's, without a doubt, the dumbest thing every conceived! It's the "wait-cross-wait-cross" method of left turn and it's just plain dumb. Protected lanes aren't anything to crow about either, especially the way in which all cyclists are confined to the ghetto of that lane which is usually poorly maintained and/or far too narrow. But making us do "wait-cross-wait-cross" is adding insult to injury.

Frankly, I like the idea that the bike lane disappears at the intersection. If I'm going straight through, I just ride straight through. If I'm turning right, I turn right. If I'm turning left, I merge over into the left turn lane, get in line and turn left. Protected lanes force me to either merge with traffic a block early...and suffer the slings and arrows...or do the fraidy cat "wait-cross-wait-cross". It ain't progress. It's going backwards.
Frankly, in slower inner city traffic... I tend to agree with you... seems there is a lot of effort trying to fix "low hanging fruit..."

Outside the slow city core, work needs to be done. And of course, keeping the city core low speed is the key to safer pedestrian and cycle interactions with motorists.
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Old 07-25-19, 02:34 PM
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I have ONE difficult left turn on my commute home - I usually ride up next to the car 1st in line to turn left on their right and ride next to them as they turn left (in to only 1 lane).

Is that bad?
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Old 07-25-19, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by davei1980
I have ONE difficult left turn on my commute home - I usually ride up next to the car 1st in line to turn left on their right and ride next to them as they turn left (in to only 1 lane).

Is that bad?
This is pretty much how it's done if you ride or commute regularly. At that point, you're basically another vehicle, and I treat it as such. If I have time, I'll pull out a bit to make sure the cars will be able to see me, but then I take a wide left (assuming there's a should/bike lane) and allow the cars to turn into the proper lane.
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Old 07-25-19, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Frankly, in slower inner city traffic... I tend to agree with you... seems there is a lot of effort trying to fix "low hanging fruit..."

Outside the slow city core, work needs to be done. And of course, keeping the city core low speed is the key to safer pedestrian and cycle interactions with motorists.
I've never had a problem in the urban or suburban areas. I might not want to do a left turn from a left turn lane on an arterial but I try to avoid riding on those as a rule. When I do find myself on them, I still tend to do it the way I would in a car.
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Old 07-25-19, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane
This is pretty much how it's done if you ride or commute regularly. At that point, you're basically another vehicle, and I treat it as such. If I have time, I'll pull out a bit to make sure the cars will be able to see me, but then I take a wide left (assuming there's a should/bike lane) and allow the cars to turn into the proper lane.
Yes on the wide left - after completing the turn, I continue down the shoulder/bike lane and the cars are free to pass in the auto lane without having to switch lanes.

Even if they don't see me, it's not a big deal unless they swerve WAY to the right at the very beginning of the turn when I am close. I hover over the brake lever for just such occasions. Other than that, I hammer down and just try to clear the intersection as quickly as possible. I love my single speed for that; no worries of being between gears!
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Old 07-25-19, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by davei1980
I have ONE difficult left turn on my commute home - I usually ride up next to the car 1st in line to turn left on their right and ride next to them as they turn left (in to only 1 lane).

Is that bad?
I would say yes. Think of it in terms of traffic predictability. A motorist turning left isn't looking for traffic on their right side unless the turn is a multi-lane turn. If a motorist isn't expecting a vehicle on their right side, they aren't going to look for one. If they drift...even a little...to the right, you are out of place and probably "under car". You are also in a squeeze play if there are cars passing on the right. They aren't expecting to see you either.

Here's how I do it (along with my thought processes). I get in line behind the last car in the line. If it is a multi-lane turn, I'll be in the right most lane but still in the middle of the lane. When the light turns, I go with the traffic. Yes, the traffic can accelerate faster then me but they usually don't. Most people doddle when they turn so they don't have that much of an advantage.

The other part of turning left in turn is that I can control the cars behind me. If I have to go slower (for some reason), the cars really can't...and won't...just run over me. Drivers have been pretty well trained to avoid accidents when they can and to just run over someone because they are in the way is social unacceptable. And it involve a lot of paper work...lots and lots of paper work!

When the turn is finished, I move over towards the curb but I don't hug the curb. I move over to where it is a safe as I can be. If there is something going on in the lane that requires me to be out in the lane, that's where I will be. Even at speed people tend to avoid that paper work.
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Old 07-25-19, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
I would say yes. Think of it in terms of traffic predictability. A motorist turning left isn't looking for traffic on their right side unless the turn is a multi-lane turn. If a motorist isn't expecting a vehicle on their right side, they aren't going to look for one. If they drift...even a little...to the right, you are out of place and probably "under car". You are also in a squeeze play if there are cars passing on the right. They aren't expecting to see you either.

Here's how I do it (along with my thought processes). I get in line behind the last car in the line. If it is a multi-lane turn, I'll be in the right most lane but still in the middle of the lane. When the light turns, I go with the traffic. Yes, the traffic can accelerate faster then me but they usually don't. Most people doddle when they turn so they don't have that much of an advantage.

The other part of turning left in turn is that I can control the cars behind me. If I have to go slower (for some reason), the cars really can't...and won't...just run over me. Drivers have been pretty well trained to avoid accidents when they can and to just run over someone because they are in the way is social unacceptable. And it involve a lot of paper work...lots and lots of paper work!

When the turn is finished, I move over towards the curb but I don't hug the curb. I move over to where it is a safe as I can be. If there is something going on in the lane that requires me to be out in the lane, that's where I will be. Even at speed people tend to avoid that paper work.
Good call. Also lobbying city hall to install an MUP underpass tunnel for this intersection but not holding my breath!
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