Online shopping vs. offline shopping
#1
very fluffy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Online shopping vs. offline shopping
While checking prices, I was wondering if it makes sense to buy a folding bike in an online shop with no local franchise. Although many bikes are less expensive "online", I'm always afraid of an unnecessarily complicated way to claim my warranty in case of problems. I suspect that when I make a deal with someretailer dot com, I cannot just take the bought bike to my local retailer to fix it afterwards. Has anyone of you made experiences with both and can convince me why I should/absolutely should not buy a folding bike online?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 3,463
Bikes: Trident Spike 2 recumbent trike w/ e-assist
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked 374 Times
in
288 Posts
It helps if you buy a brand that has a dealer someplace you can get to if necessary. Or if you have stores that specialize in folding bikes. You're probably okay if you stick with the main brands anyway, like Dahon, Tern, and the higher end bikes. Not sure I would buy an "off" brand unless I knew I could wrench on it myself and the price was good enough to take some risk. Keep in mind if you pay by credit card, most cards will cover any problems with the product for the first 90 days usualy so that's some protection. I live within 30 minutes of the Euromini offices so I would feel comfortable buying a bike from them because I could easily show up and raise hell if necessary, but if I bought a Solorock, for example, they're out of Canada I believe....would have to trust in their customer service. Pick your brand and do some research and see if people have had issues getting warranty claims resolved. Remember you would probably have to pay to ship the bike back even for warranty claims and for some less expensive bikes, that can be a fair percentage of the purchase price! Good luck.
#4
55+ Club,...
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in New York, NY
Posts: 4,322
Bikes: 9+,...
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1112 Post(s)
Liked 847 Times
in
591 Posts
ThorUSA, Downtube Folding Bikes, Origami Bicycles, and Zizzo are all reputable online companies that have excellent customer service. The only company I haven't made a purchase from, yet, is Zizzo.
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
Last edited by tds101; 01-01-19 at 11:31 AM.
#5
Banned
What are you looking for?
If you buy bikes and accessories in my nearby LBS the staff puts them on for you (Its not a Folding bike Specialist , but they have a Dahon type on offer)
Sure you can, but it will not be Free... I/We, have worked on many others, left for Service.. to refurbish, repair and safety tuning..
...
I cannot just take the bought bike to my local retailer to fix it afterwards ..
...
Last edited by fietsbob; 01-01-19 at 11:54 AM.
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 3,463
Bikes: Trident Spike 2 recumbent trike w/ e-assist
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked 374 Times
in
288 Posts
ThorUSA, Downtube Folding Bikes, Origami Bicycles, and Zizzo are all reputable online companies that have excellent customer service. The only company I haven't made a purchase from, yet, is Zizzo.
#8
55+ Club,...
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in New York, NY
Posts: 4,322
Bikes: 9+,...
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1112 Post(s)
Liked 847 Times
in
591 Posts
You never bothered to specify where you're located, so we in the USA provided solutions based on your being a bit "local". State what country you're in, and SOMEONE should be able to get you an answer.
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
#9
very fluffy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Sorry, you are right. I had only mentioned that in my introductory post. I'm from Germany.
(I added this to my Location field now - thank you.)
(I added this to my Location field now - thank you.)
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Henrico, VA
Posts: 1,480
Bikes: Origami Gazelle, Origami Crane 8, Origami Cricket 7
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 452 Post(s)
Liked 405 Times
in
241 Posts
While checking prices, I was wondering if it makes sense to buy a folding bike in an online shop with no local franchise. Although many bikes are less expensive "online", I'm always afraid of an unnecessarily complicated way to claim my warranty in case of problems. I suspect that when I make a deal with someretailer dot com, I cannot just take the bought bike to my local retailer to fix it afterwards. Has anyone of you made experiences with both and can convince me why I should/absolutely should not buy a folding bike online?
__________________
Paul Pinigis
Owner of Origami Bicycle Company
Paul Pinigis
Owner of Origami Bicycle Company
#11
Senior Member
While checking prices, I was wondering if it makes sense to buy a folding bike in an online shop with no local franchise. Although many bikes are less expensive "online", I'm always afraid of an unnecessarily complicated way to claim my warranty in case of problems. I suspect that when I make a deal with someretailer dot com, I cannot just take the bought bike to my local retailer to fix it afterwards. Has anyone of you made experiences with both and can convince me why I should/absolutely should not buy a folding bike online?
In general, most bikeshops dislike the idea of sorting out issues on a bike that has been bought elsewhere cheaply. Something I can understand. Support your local dealer is a good concept as long as the price difference is not ridiculously high, the more if you depend on the knowledge of the dealer. If you buy from an online shop warranty is with this shop (first two years, following EU law). Which means: Ship back to the shop. As you can imagine most shops are not keen on that, not more than you are (they prefer sell and forget). Some may redirect you to a local shop for warranty repairs - you can imagine how keen the local shop may be on a warranty repair on a bike that you could have been bought through them but did not to save some Euros... Shops that do not sell a lot of folders are often not able to perform qualified repairs or maintenance on folders, at least not on their non-standard-parts like anything regarding the folding mechanism. As folders are different from each other unfortunately this differs also between brands - a Tern dealer may not be able to repair a Brompton and vice versa.
So the questions are:
1. Where do you live?
2. Do you know which bike you want to buy (and why)?
3. What do you intend to use the bike for?
4. How safe are you about your choice and about the assumptions of usage?
5. Did you already test ride a handful of different folders?
6. Are you able to deal with repairs on you own?
7. What price difference would a local support to a shop be worth to you?
Depending from your answers buying online may be a valid choice or not and it may also be possible to redirect you to a qualified nearby shop if necessary or useful.
#12
Banned
One, you have to get out of your chair and Go somewhere...
I converse over E mail and the Phone with both Bike Friday* ... and the Brompton dealers .. one in Palo Alto Cal passed away recently ,
one in Portland 'PDX' is where I go to, now. ..
neither have a grey market cutout..
* Though as My Local sees Repairs , and , I did a Post powder coat Rebuild of one ,We have a business to business relationship with the Eugene based company...
Bike Friday hand builds in their shop, ships internationally, including Germany, After sale service is shipped as well ,, people around the globe own and ride them ..
A shop in Bath , England Represents them for Europe..
Brompton has a dealer protection plan, so I cannot for example get parts From SJS Cycles in UK, but must go through a US dealer.
....
one in Portland 'PDX' is where I go to, now. ..
neither have a grey market cutout..
* Though as My Local sees Repairs , and , I did a Post powder coat Rebuild of one ,We have a business to business relationship with the Eugene based company...
Bike Friday hand builds in their shop, ships internationally, including Germany, After sale service is shipped as well ,, people around the globe own and ride them ..
A shop in Bath , England Represents them for Europe..
Brompton has a dealer protection plan, so I cannot for example get parts From SJS Cycles in UK, but must go through a US dealer.
....
Last edited by fietsbob; 01-03-19 at 02:03 PM.
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18373 Post(s)
Liked 4,508 Times
in
3,351 Posts
Being a small company, Bike Friday makes their own frames, but much of the rest of the bike is very generic, so you can replace most of the parts anywhere.
Brompton is a UK company. Road Trip from Germany? There should be some good European sources.
There are quite a few small Chinese direct export companies that will sell a bike anywhere you wish to buy it, but you could run into issues with longterm support if something odd breaks.
#14
Senior Member
Price + shipping cost + 19% tax (in Germany) + 14% customs + 48,5% anti-dumping customs (for bikes from China only). Plus if a bike does not conform to European safety standards it will be trashed by the customs office. A bit of a gamble if importing from China is a good idea...
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18373 Post(s)
Liked 4,508 Times
in
3,351 Posts
Despite the undoubtable quality of BFs buying them over here does not make much sense for most people. For one as you cannot try them out, secondly because they are pretty expensive bikes in Europe due to overseas shipping cost and taxes and customs. Prices are vastly higher than in the US.
But, I can understand the reluctance for their more standard folders.
Used Bike Fridays show up locally on Craigslist frequently, and there seems to be a bit of a glut at the moment.
Oops, some of the cheaper ones have vanished.
https://eugene.craigslist.org/search...ry=bike+friday
Import duties on Chinese bikes in Europe are high:
Price + shipping cost + 19% tax (in Germany) + 14% customs + 48,5% anti-dumping customs (for bikes from China only). Plus if a bike does not conform to European safety standards it will be trashed by the customs office. A bit of a gamble if importing from China is a good idea...
Price + shipping cost + 19% tax (in Germany) + 14% customs + 48,5% anti-dumping customs (for bikes from China only). Plus if a bike does not conform to European safety standards it will be trashed by the customs office. A bit of a gamble if importing from China is a good idea...
Here, pretty much anything < $800 retail for personal use gets through customs without taxes, and probably minimal inspection (which is considered to be a major problem by some of the small bike shops).
Do all those tariffs apply to used merchandise, or just new?
Other than China or Europe, does the country of origin affect it?
Oh, Germany also has the Generator law. That could be an issue, so no matter what, you could be rebuilding some wheels.
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 3,463
Bikes: Trident Spike 2 recumbent trike w/ e-assist
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked 374 Times
in
288 Posts
You've got Vello bikes made over there, not sure if Birdys are still made in Germany. Check this list: Folding Bike Manufacturer Directory - The Folding Cyclist Some of it might be out of date.
#17
Senior Member
No idea.
The anti-dumping tariff is especially for complete bikes coming from China to Europe. Electric bikes are not covered as far as I know. Neither are bike parts. The whole customs thing is pretty complex. Depening from what you import and from where customs are vastly different. If you are really bored one day you can spend it browsing the Taric database that list all the compbinations https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_custom...ariff/taric_en
Dahon and I think Tern, too manufacture their bikes for the European market inside Europe for these customs reasons (which AFAIK means they import the frames and parts and build the bikes in their factories in Europe).
There is no more generator law for a couple of years now. You have to have lights on your bike at night in Germany and the lights have to fulfill certain standards officially but battery lights are ok. And in reality no one will check if the lights are standard compliant - the police is happy if you have lights at all (which leads to some people riding with really annyoing lights). Still dynamos are common over here - a good idea if you ride in the dark a lot and dislike thinking about batteries and lights or want to charge your smartphone while riding.
#18
Senior Member
Different brands have different “supply chain strategies” behind the scenes that can fundamentally affect their products and services. A supply chain may be made up of three links, namely: design, production, and marketing. “Design” includes invention, engineering and product aesthetic design. It has to be a non-stop effort to improve, like anything. “Production” includes tooling, mass production and quality assurance. “Marketing” includes planning and execution of marketing/sales policies. Five different types of supply chains might be recognized (and nice to know):
- International companies who manage all three links; design, manufacturing and marketing. This type has the most vertical integration and can theoretically supply the best products and services for the costs; but economy-of-scale and geo-economy can be serious challenges. (This type include: Di Blasi, Dahon, Brompton, Oyama, Giant, bike Friday, Ubike, Jango.)
- Marketers with Designs. Marketers who do their own designs, place orders with original equipment manufacturers (OEM). Theoretically better than 1 above in division of labor. (Montague, Birdy, Raleigh, Tern, Allen Sport) Communication and shortage of over-lapping expertise can bring nagging problems.
- All links independent. All three chain links are handled by different companies. This type can theoretically be a nice synergy between East and West and can produce good innovative products. But problems mentioned for 2 above can be exacerbated. (Birdy, Pacific, Ubike)
- Importers from OEM. Western importers who buy from Asian OEM manufacturers with little designing from either party. Copying is the key. They survive by aggressive pricing and promotion.
- OEM manufacturers, mostly from China, who offer Folding Bicycle with their own logos, and touting “factory direct” on the Internet and other mass outlets. While typically new to quality assurance and marketing protocols, they are most price competitive. (Find them in Alibaba and Aliexpress). Again, copying is the name of the game; legal entanglement is frequent.
#19
very fluffy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I wonder why no sufficiently large folding bike vendor has managed to open a wide network of distributors in most countries (yet?). I mean, according to this ongoing discussion, any vendor which would have it easy on this rather empty market. Instead, there is a choice between "drive far away to a shop which may not even exist next week anymore" and "invest half of the initial price for shipping once you broke your precious driving device". Except Brompton, of course. They are surprisingly broad here in the ~ 50 km area.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,203
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3459 Post(s)
Liked 1,465 Times
in
1,143 Posts
How mechanically inclined are you? If some part needs a bit of adjustment, is that something you feel comfortable in doing? I worked at a bike shop, I usually buy the parts and build up the bike I want. But I know people that have to go to a bike shop if they get a flat tire.
My point is that if you will likely rely heavily on local mechanical support, it is best to buy what the local mechanics are willing to work on for a reasonable fee. But if you are comfortable in doing bike repairs yourself, which includes some more complicated chores like cleaning, lubricating and eventually changing a chain, changing cables, adjusting anything that has a control cable to it, etc., then you have to consider the risk and reward for the lower on-line cost.
That said, I would not buy a complete bike from a company unless I spent at least a few hours on the internet trying to find out if the on line seller has a good reputation or not.
I am not familiar with German bike companies, thus I have no suggestions. But you have some great on line parts sellers that offer fantastic prices.
And this may be the most important criteria. Folding bikes are a compromise, you gain portability if you lose ride-ability. A tiny bike that packs up fast for a ride on the train is not expected to be a great riding fast smooth comfortable well handling bike. You only asked about folding bikes, but you did not say why you want a folding bike and which is more important to you, portability or ride-ability. In a retail store where you can talk to sales staff and maybe take a bike out for a spin around the parking lot, you may quickly find out that the bike you thought would be your dream bike is the last thing you want.
My point is that if you will likely rely heavily on local mechanical support, it is best to buy what the local mechanics are willing to work on for a reasonable fee. But if you are comfortable in doing bike repairs yourself, which includes some more complicated chores like cleaning, lubricating and eventually changing a chain, changing cables, adjusting anything that has a control cable to it, etc., then you have to consider the risk and reward for the lower on-line cost.
That said, I would not buy a complete bike from a company unless I spent at least a few hours on the internet trying to find out if the on line seller has a good reputation or not.
I am not familiar with German bike companies, thus I have no suggestions. But you have some great on line parts sellers that offer fantastic prices.
And this may be the most important criteria. Folding bikes are a compromise, you gain portability if you lose ride-ability. A tiny bike that packs up fast for a ride on the train is not expected to be a great riding fast smooth comfortable well handling bike. You only asked about folding bikes, but you did not say why you want a folding bike and which is more important to you, portability or ride-ability. In a retail store where you can talk to sales staff and maybe take a bike out for a spin around the parking lot, you may quickly find out that the bike you thought would be your dream bike is the last thing you want.
#21
very fluffy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Somewhere in Germany
Posts: 20
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Honestly, not at all. There is no way that I could repair, let alone build a bike myself without making it worse to actually fix it.
A folding bike would have two major advantages for me:
1. I usually take a bus, I don't own a car. Taking it with me would be convenient.
2. I have an excuse to own one. A non-folding bike would probably rot in my shed because I'd never have it with me. Sometimes I need to force myself...
I put some thought into the process, I guess.
My two options are a Brompton and a larger folder. Currently leaning towards the second option because even 20 inches would work in German buses and the tire market is much larger.
I'll think about it for some more time.
A folding bike would have two major advantages for me:
1. I usually take a bus, I don't own a car. Taking it with me would be convenient.
2. I have an excuse to own one. A non-folding bike would probably rot in my shed because I'd never have it with me. Sometimes I need to force myself...
I put some thought into the process, I guess.
My two options are a Brompton and a larger folder. Currently leaning towards the second option because even 20 inches would work in German buses and the tire market is much larger.
I'll think about it for some more time.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 11,203
Bikes: 1961 Ideor, 1966 Perfekt 3 Speed AB Hub, 1994 Bridgestone MB-6, 2006 Airnimal Joey, 2009 Thorn Sherpa, 2013 Thorn Nomad MkII, 2015 VO Pass Hunter, 2017 Lynskey Backroad, 2017 Raleigh Gran Prix, 1980s Bianchi Mixte on a trainer. Others are now gone.
Mentioned: 48 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3459 Post(s)
Liked 1,465 Times
in
1,143 Posts
You might want to consider an internally geared hub instead of derailleurs if you get a multi-speed bike. An internally geared hub would be a bit more maintenence free.
#24
Senior Member
I could not draw this conclusion from the discussion. Just the hint that a bike that is used needs some service and spare parts from time to time and that this is something to consider in your decision what and where to buy.
#25
Senior Member
Honestly, not at all. There is no way that I could repair, let alone build a bike myself without making it worse to actually fix it.
A folding bike would have two major advantages for me:
1. I usually take a bus, I don't own a car. Taking it with me would be convenient.
2. I have an excuse to own one. A non-folding bike would probably rot in my shed because I'd never have it with me. Sometimes I need to force myself...
I put some thought into the process, I guess.
My two options are a Brompton and a larger folder. Currently leaning towards the second option because even 20 inches would work in German buses and the tire market is much larger.
I'll think about it for some more time.
A folding bike would have two major advantages for me:
1. I usually take a bus, I don't own a car. Taking it with me would be convenient.
2. I have an excuse to own one. A non-folding bike would probably rot in my shed because I'd never have it with me. Sometimes I need to force myself...
I put some thought into the process, I guess.
My two options are a Brompton and a larger folder. Currently leaning towards the second option because even 20 inches would work in German buses and the tire market is much larger.
I'll think about it for some more time.