oleg232000

Hey guys. Im looking to upgrade my old ass New Success 8 Speed drivetrain. It performs fairly well, i cant really complain, but it seems to misalign to often/quickly. I switch smoothly, dont cross chain, switch before uphills etc so lets not go there. Regardless, I m looking at either a mechanical Ultegra or Dura Ace, or even the latest 105, depends on what deals i can find. But they are all obviously 10/11 speeds, the newer ones anyway (6800, 7800 etc). Can i change out the hubs on my current wheel, or do I have to change the entire wheel out? And will my current BB handle the newer drivetrain (if it fits of course)?

upthywazzoo 

Depends on the age of your frame, but fitting 11s parts shouldn't be an issue since the requisite shims/spacers will be provided with a new groupset/crankset to get your chainline correct. The assumption here is that your frame already has 130mm rear spacing or can be stretched to that spacing without trouble. As to replacing your hub....you can do this with any wheel, but it will require a good amount of work and relacing with new spokes and I'm not sure you want to deal with that. It's probably worth your time to just get a new wheel.

alcjphil

What sort of hub/cassette system do you have now? If you want to upgrade to 10/11 speed Shimano, you need a Shimano splined freehub. 8,9 and 10 speed Shimano cassettes will all fit older 8 speed hubs, 11 speed requires a slightly longer freehub body

Moisture

How old is the drivetrain? Do u ride hard? How often? Does it have a lot of miles on it?

I think you'd be better off to check the chain for wear first and replace with a new one, and then go from there. Also try to replace the lines to the derailer since they tend to stretch.

You can upgrade to a 9 speed cassette if you wish, not sure what is required for 10+ other than the obvious change in chain size.

Next, figure out which chainring and cassette tooth count will work best for your needs and change accordingly.

spelger

doesn't sound worth the $ and hassle in my opinion. my ride is an old 8 speed too and it works fine for me. i thought about doing what you want and figured that the cost exceeded the worth of the bike. that said i still use it since it is my only ride. and i doubt i would have changed the extreams of the gearing. some need higher resolution, others do not.

eduskator

+1

oleg232000

I am actually running a shimano hub on a 8 speed shimano cassette. So if I find a 10 speed, i can probably keep the wheel hub setup is what your saying?

So the drive train is part of the original 1997 neutral support bike drivetrain, so its at least that old. I ride pretty hard. Dont really cruise. 2-3 times a week, 20-40 miles per ride. The drivetrain, honestly i dont know how many miles. I would assume thousands, perhaps 10's of thousands. Its actually pretty good. It doesnt slip, or do anything like scary, but its loud, and very hard to tune. Like i have to look for speciality guys who do "vintagy" drivetrains. I tried myself as well a couple of times, and the gears at the inner and outer extremes are really hard to align just right. But, I am not an expert by any means. The chain was replaced less than 600 miles ago. I will admit, the drivetrain is kind of gunked up, and perhaps will work better after a deep clean. I just had some opportunities to acquire a dura ace and an ultegra at pretty good prices and was really considering it. But yeah, I would not spend retail on those drivetrains at this point.

shelbyfv

With an exception or two, Shimano 8 speed freehubs will take 8,9 or 10 speed cassettes. You can also use a 34t 11 speed cassette, nothing smaller. The 105/7000 group is $625 at Merlin and gives the option of the 11-34 cassette and appropriate rear derailleur. You would also get the HT II bottom bracket which is much easier to remove and install than whatever you have now. If it's the Litespeed you are thinking of upgrading, it's probably nice enough to warrant bringing it up to date. https://www.merlincycles.com/en-us/s...et-118524.html

Dave Mayer

Sachs New Success.... A joint venture between Sachs (German/French) and Campagnolo (Italian); 90s vintage. Campagnolo made the shifters and Sachs made the derailleurs according to Campagnolo cable pull specs. The shifters are pure Campagnolo, designed for 8-speed cogsets spaced at 5.0mm cog center to center, and Campagnolo rear derailleurs with a 1.43 : 1 actuation ratio. The Sachs New Success rear derailleurs were manufactured (by Sachs) to be compatible with Campy cable pull requirements - they are definitely not Shimano compatible.


When new, with new cables/housings and correct setup, this stuff shifts as well as any current mechanical systems. It requires somewhat more finger pressure to downshift, and the shifting action is more 'definitive' than Shimano, but some folks like this.


So your first problem is that you have a cogset with Shimano 8-speed spacing or 4.8mm cog center to center. Not a big deal, and your shifters can work well with the slight difference. Second, is that your G-springs and spring carriers likely need to be replaced on the right shifter. These are consumables with a lifespan of about 3 years of years of hard riding. It takes someone good about one hour and $30 worth of parts to restore the right-hand shifter action. The left hand shifters, need servicing much less frequently. Once the G-springs are replaced, these shifters are essentially new again.


Whatever you do: do not attempt to flush out these shifters with WD40 or worse: anything 'Green', as this will strip necessary grease out of the shifter guts. Same goes for the Sachs rear derailleur. Tearing apart this unit and regreasing will restore it to as new condition. Unless the derailleur shows pivot play - then it is truly worn out and should be discarded. With 20 years of use - your rear derailleur is likely toast. Again, a Shimano or Shimano compatible rear derailleur is in no way compatible. You need a Sachs New Success or 1992-2001 Campy rear derailleur here.


Of course, you would have replaced all of the cables and housings multiple times over the life of this gear. Make sure you spec the proper shift and brake cables for your shifters - Shimano/Jagwire whatever spec cable ends will jam up in these shifters, causing all kinds of misery when you attempt to extract them a year from now.


Other advice: avoid Shimano 7400 and 7800 series wheelsets. These obsolete wheels have proprietary parts that are between a PITA to impossible to source.

oleg232000

Thanks for the education. But is it worth all that trouble trying to get this Sachs New Success drivetrain up to speed rather than buying a new drivetrain? Sure it will cost less most likely, but besides the nostalgia, what am I gaining by keeping the sachs drivetrain?

Dave Mayer

A current mechanical drivetrain is not going to shift any better (speed, reliability, accuracy) than your current Sachs drivetrain. I have a couple of bikes from this era, with 90's era Campagnolo 8-speed gear, and the shift quality is as good as my 11-speed stuff.

The big IF is assuming the Sachs stuff is not worn out, or overdue servicing. The best case scenario is that you current stuff could be restored to as-new shifting performance with a changeout of cables, housing and a new chain. So $50 worth of parts, and 30 minutes.

Worst case is if your shifter G-springs and spring carrier are shot, the shifter hoods need replacing, your chain, rings and cassette are worn out, and your rear derailleur is worn/sloppy. In that case, you would have to spend $350 or so in parts, and a few hours of time of a (really really) expert mechanic. Maybe 1 in 1,000 shop mechanics has ever taken apart Campagnolo (or any brand) of shifters, so you're probably out of luck there.

Keep in mind that you'll need a new wheelset to handle the wider width of the 11-speed cassette. Add that into the upgrade cost.

upthywazzoo 

I have a different experience from Dave above. I think there is a clear difference between vintage 8-speed and modern 11/12. I've used almost everything--6s downtube up to eTap AXS (but not Sachs 8s, lol). The most noticeable difference is more gears. Assuming you've bought a cassette with an ideal range for your power output, it is much, much easier to maintain your ideal cadence because you have more gears in the middle. The action on modern shifters is better. I don't know how that can even be disputed. Try them side by side. R7000 will blow away Dura Ace 7402 in terms of shifting feel and how well the front derailleur works. Don't even get me started on how good Di2 and eTap are.

The downsides to modern groupsets are that they're more complicated and finnicky to set up. The move to hidden shift and brake cables makes makes your shifting much more sensitive to suboptimal cable routing. My last bike had R9100 mechanical on it. I was coming from 7800, considered to be one of the very best groupsets ever prior to hidden cable routing. The only thing 7800 has over R9100 is style. The new stuff is just leaps better.

oleg232000

Yeah, my only real problem is the front derailleur. The rear is quite fine actually, even with all the gunk and what not. Hmm, i will ponder this. Also, there is supposedly like a vintage drivetrain expert in my area, so i will perhaps give the Sachs one last good effort (cleaning, tuning, replacing as stated above) and see how it rolls. Unless I see a Dura Ace for 300$ LOL

genejockey 

I had both 8 speed Sachs New Success and 8 speed Dura Ace and hands down the Dura Ace is better. I always said 'It shifts like thought', meaning I'd think 'I want a higher gear' and *click* it was instantly in that gear. Sachs was...okay.

Last fall, I converted that 8 speed, 7410 DA to 10 speed 7800 DA brifters and rear derailleur (Dragging my bike from the early 90s to the early 00's), and it STILL shifts like thought, but now I have 2 more gears and a 30-tooth largest cog, which, being 2 decades older, I appreciate.

genejockey 

That's not been my experience. I find the R7000 to be fiddlier to adjust and more likely to rub no matter how well it's adjusted and it shifts no better than the 7400 series FD - both of them are smooth and damn near instant. I'm currently running one bike with 7800 shifters and a 7400 series FD, on a 7410 crank (the most beautiful crankset known to man) on one bike and R7000 on another, and they're both great.

jamesdak 

Shhhh..... don't tell our secrets. The more they upgrade to the new "better" stuff the more used great ol' gear is available to those of us that know the truth.

genejockey 

Yeah, I gotta say, as old as they are, those 7800 components are working great!

Leinster

I recently upgraded a bike with old Mirage 8spd to Athena 11. I like having a bigger gearing range (13-26 to 12-29) and having them closer together (15, 16, AND 17!) I'm very happy with my upgrade, even though the old Mirage stuff was still working perfectly well.

A key part was getting a good deal on a pair of Ksyriums; all Mavic hubs are 11spd compatible. The Fulcrum 7s I did have couldn't take the 11s cassette for some reason, so they're still on my CAAD with 10spd 105.