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Vittoria's new foam insert for road bikes with flat tires

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Vittoria's new foam insert for road bikes with flat tires

Old 04-03-21, 05:10 AM
  #26  
chaadster
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
So now we only need a rim/tyre comparability list, a compressor, some sealant, some extra valve cores, a bead jack, a co2 pump, a set of bacon strips with insert tool and a cushcore for our TL hookless whel/tyre combo, that is supposedly flat proof to begin with ..
It was never flat-proof.

With Airliner, though, you could ditch the emergency flat repair kit altogether. No plugs, no CO2. Rely on the sealant for most puncture repair, and then the Airliner for sealant-unpluggable punctures.

Airliner without road repair kit means never messing around roadside...if you’re willing to hive up on the idea of returning to a normal ride after a catastrophic/unpluggable event. Probably some will find that liberating or the risk worth taking.

I’ve been road tubeless since ‘12 or ‘13, and only twice needed to go to a tube to deal with a sealant-unpluggable puncture. Those are good enough ofds for me yo seriously consider Airliner and give up on the concept of road repair.

I use my multitool even less, so I’d probably dump everything except a mini-pump, which might be handy to top up pressure after a sealant repair. Maybe. Really, I’d probably dump that, too.

Between the seat bag, pump, and tools, I’m sure I’ve got more than $100 in emergency kit related stuff, so Airliner would easily save me money as well. Sh*t, my Lezyne Road Drive Carbon pumps are more than $100 apiece...

Last edited by chaadster; 04-03-21 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Grammar fix
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Old 04-03-21, 05:23 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
So now we only need a rim/tyre comparability list, a compressor, some sealant, some extra valve cores, a bead jack, a co2 pump, a set of bacon strips with insert tool and a cushcore for our TL hookless whel/tyre combo, that is supposedly flat proof to begin with ..
Need? No. Yeah, on a subject in which you have more disdain than knowledge, you got something wrong - shocker.

Should we compare the list of required materials for tube users? Tubes really aren't that much more simple - they're just more familiar. "The devil you know... " and all of that.

Actually, let's just keep to the subject of the thread, rather than pander to bottom-feeding troll attempts.

----------

The inserts sound interesting, but I'm not sure that I'm interested in them... In my five years or so of tubeless use, I've probably had... maybe two instances where it would have come in handy. So it becomes a question of whether or not I want the increased cost and and extra install/removal work for occurrences that have proven themselves to be pretty rare.
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Old 04-03-21, 05:38 AM
  #28  
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Interesting but I am not jumping on it.

Still running 10 speed drivetrain and clinchers with tubes.

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Old 04-03-21, 08:42 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
So it becomes a question of whether or not I want the increased cost and and extra install/removal work for occurrences that have proven themselves to be pretty rare.
Right, but being honest, I’ve wrestled with tubeless rim/tire combos to the point I wished I’d had a bead jack, so I’m not sure there’s really extra there, just different work!

It’s the idea of never having to futz and fail roadside which is appealing to me. Airliner doesn’t eliminate the futz— stopping to put the hole at 6 o’clock to seal will still be a thing— but it does remove the fail part, in that if the sealant doesn’t do it in a couple of minutes, I can call the whole situation then and ride to wherever on the Airliner. I won’t have to try a plug which pulls out down the road (or did I forget the plug tool?), I won’t have to pump the tire (or did I give one cartridge to buddy and blow my last cartridge on a gummed up valve?), I wont have to put a boot and tube (or did I forget my levers or pinch cut the tube reseating the bead?).

Yeah, none of those things happen much, but they do happen, along with a whole bunch of other stuff like ****** weather, horrific clouds of mosquitos, multiple flats, and needing to get home in time to pock up the kid so I don’t get billed extra by the school. Removing all the variables from roadside repair and simplifying the “decision tree” is pretty compelling to me.

I also like the Airliner idea tremendously for primarily urban bikes, where flats are even more irritating because I usually have somewhere to be.

And because I have a 15 bike household with actively 9 separate, dedicated road repair kits, rendering all those packs, tubes, patches, plugs, pumps, cartridges and levers obsolete (or down to one, at-home kit) substantially simplifies my life. Like, I was just about to buy a Dynaplug Racer tire plug kit, which at $50 is half the price of a pair of Airliners, but which doesn’t guarantee me anything out on the road because it still requires the right size hole, a pump, and probably some sealant and luck. Another $50 makes it all go away...

Here’s a question though: can Airliners be reused? I wonder if riding it flat destroys it?
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Old 04-03-21, 09:12 AM
  #30  
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Oh god:

Recommendations

  • It is recommended not to ride more than 50 km at moderate speed of max 20 km/h in run-flat conditions.
  • Air-Liner Road complies with ISO requirements for max system weight of 125 kg (rider, bike and equipment).
  • In case of puncture, and consequent air loss, Air-Liner Road allows for temporary low-speed run-flat riding, to get you home. While Air-Liner Road allows you to ride to the nearest repair area, it is not intended as a substitute for a properly inflated tire for extended use.
  • The Air-Liner Road insert must be checked each time a tire is changed, prior to installing a replacement tire. Air-Liner Road dimensions can be negatively affected by certain conditions, which may reduce its effectiveness, or eliminate its functionality, such as:

    1) Riding on a flat tire: always check the condition of the Air-Liner ROAD insert, after its use inside a deflated tire;

    2) Storing the Air-Liner inside a deflated tire: We recommend keeping a moderate pressure (1 Bar min) when not in use. We recommend replacing Air-Liner Road inserts every year.
  • The Air-liner Road insert can be safely ridden inside a deflated tire, provided the integrity of the insert is maintained, allowing for the original dimensions to remain consistent. The insert must not to be modified on its original shape and dimensions.
https://www.vittoria.com/us/en/techn...air-liner-road
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Old 04-03-21, 09:58 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I'm skeptical, but it would be great if I'm wrong. They claim it has no effect on rolling resistance and weighs less than your valve. The idea is you can limp home or back to your car without damaging your rim.

https://cyclingtips.com/2021/04/vitt...or-road-bikes/
I think it's great. I watched the GCN video on it this week. Simon said it's like running on 30PSI (if I recall properly) when you get a flat, which is not that bad.

It's nice how the foam expands or shrinks depending on the internal air pressure. It does not seem to be adding much weight either.
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Old 04-03-21, 10:23 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by eduskator
Simon [quoting Vittoria] said it's like running on 30PSI (if I recall properly) when you get a flat, which is not that bad.
Whether that’s true depends on rider weight.

A 150lbs rider will have a very different impression of a 25c at 30psi than a 250lbs rider will, and if you’re closer to 260lbs on anything other than carbon fiber lightweight, given the recommended max system weight of 275.5lbs, it might just be straight-up bad.
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Old 04-03-21, 10:37 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
So now we only need a rim/tyre comparability list, a compressor, some sealant, some extra valve cores, a bead jack, a co2 pump, a set of bacon strips with insert tool and a cushcore for our TL hookless whel/tyre combo, that is supposedly flat proof to begin with ..
If I didn't know what I was talking about, I would rather learn instead of taking everybody I don't know what I'm talking about. 🙂
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Old 04-03-21, 11:01 AM
  #34  
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So now we find it is possibly good only for one flat at a cost equal to a tire and riding on it is a safety issue if not ridden carefully. Progess
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Old 04-03-21, 05:42 PM
  #35  
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Thinking about how this works.

When you pump up the tyre initially the airliner compresses because it's a closed cell foam and there's a pressure differential. Eventually the high pressure air will make its way into the cells and the foam will expand back to its normal shape again when the pressure between the air inside the airliner and the tyre equalises. When you get a puncture the closed cells are still at high pressure and the airliner will expand to fill the volume of the tyre, pressure will drop accordingly. They will hold their pressure for a little while but go squishy as the airliner loses pressure.

After installation while the pressure is equalising the tyres will deflate faster than normal.
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Old 04-03-21, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by popeye
So now we find it is possibly good only for one flat at a cost equal to a tire and riding on it is a safety issue if not ridden carefully. Progess
Did you know you can still get killed even if you wear a helmet?
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Old 04-03-21, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
Tubes are a pain in the ass. They flat a lot more often, you have to run higher pressures because there's a tube to pinch, they add to rolling resistance, the ride quality is lesser.
Totally agree. I've been tubeless on all bikes for three years. I'm never going back to tubes, for all the reasons you list. I've done probably 15 setups myself so far. At this point, I actually find trying to get a tube in a tire without pinching it more or a hassle than mounting a tubeless tire. You just have to develop a repeatable system that works for you.

This thing seems gimmicky, but if they work as advertised, even better. I'll use them if they work.
CushCore is well established and accepted technology on mountain bikes. I think something like this is probably overkill for the majority of road and gravel riders, but the idea apparently works as advertised.
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Old 04-03-21, 10:03 PM
  #38  
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I saw this the other day on GCN and it was interesting to see that EF Nippo has already used them in a number of pro races.
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Old 04-03-21, 10:52 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
Oh god:

Recommendations

  • It is recommended not to ride more than 50 km at moderate speed of max 20 km/h in run-flat conditions
The guy in the gcn video was going a lot faster than that, and leaning into corners. Probably the numeric limits are the work of lawyers?
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Old 04-03-21, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
The guy in the gcn video was going a lot faster than that, and leaning into corners. Probably the numeric limits are the work of lawyers?
Certainly to an extent, but do we know that as going on the vid segment? Was the rear flatted as well? How much does Simon weigh?
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Old 04-04-21, 03:22 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
If I didn't know what I was talking about, I would rather learn instead of taking everybody I don't know what I'm talking about. 🙂
Sure, but at this point the faff competes head to head with tubs!, and according to the internets, TL was already perfect to begin with, years ago, and every YT bike channel, Including GCN, was riding TL tyres over boxes of thumbtacks and broken bottles, showing off the supposed "great" benefits of TL road tyres. - But why then, is an ever growing list of tools, remedies and proverbial crutches needed?* Latest and greatest is an "airliner" that enables run-flat conditions (that TL was supposed to prevent in the first place) AND retain the bead lock in the event of air loss. An issues that was also touted as a TL benefit over clinchers. Are they afraid of the tyres burping, from ppl running ever lower pressures on their TL/hookless setups and having the tyres come off from instant deflation and loosing the bead lock?* :-) Its all great, but good luck installing or removing a tight TL tyre from a rim that has a foam insert preventing you from using the channel to ease the installation, .. For the removal of a tyre with a airliner you can now add a special plier and clips to the TL toolbox, to get the tyre off of the bead and rim :-)


*(rhetoric questions, -please don't answer)

Last edited by Racing Dan; 04-04-21 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 04-04-21, 07:13 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by popeye
So now we find it is possibly good only for one flat at a cost equal to a tire and riding on it is a safety issue if not ridden carefully. Progess
Not being careful while riding down the street one block from your home is a safety issue.
What’s your point again?
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Old 04-04-21, 07:48 AM
  #43  
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Racing Dan dudes like you said the same things about STI, suspension systems, and disc brakes.
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Old 04-04-21, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster
Racing Dan dudes like you said the same things about STI, suspension systems, and disc brakes.
And, if we want to get technical with his blame game, tubeless was a development to address the shortcomings of tubed clinchers, so he can ultimately thank them for all of his "faff."
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Old 04-04-21, 08:09 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster
Not being careful while riding down the street one block from your home is a safety issue.
What’s your point again?
Should be fairly obvious. Its a limp home system rather than race down steep hills on a flat system, like they make it appear at GCN. - And the price, I dunno, but combined with a TL tyre, that is already more expensive than clinchers, and sealant it does add up, especially if we are meant to replace the inserts at a yearly interval, at $40 per insert. Im sure lots couldn't care less, but the fear of flats and ppl insisting riding race day tyres, all the time, sure does drive a lot of business.

Me, I just put on a more robust clincher and ride. Haven't had a flat for ages and when I finally do, I pop in an new tube and be on my way in less time than I took to write this post :-) No special tools, other than my hands, a tyre lever and a basic pump is needed either.

Call me a luddite all you want, but this simply doesn't feel like real progress unlike SIS, hydraulic brakes, DI2, .. etc.
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Old 04-04-21, 08:35 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Call me a luddite all you want, but this simply doesn't feel like real progress...
For some people, it's not - I guess that you're one of them. For others, though, tubeless is absolutely a huge quality of life improvement, eliminating, or at least greatly mitigating, a regular hassle associated with roadside flats. This is why hackles are sometimes raised when people like you pop in to a thread with the sole purpose of slinging ****.
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Old 04-04-21, 08:48 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
Whether that’s true depends on rider weight.

A 150lbs rider will have a very different impression of a 25c at 30psi than a 250lbs rider will, and if you’re closer to 260lbs on anything other than carbon fiber lightweight, given the recommended max system weight of 275.5lbs, it might just be straight-up bad.
Thanks captain obvious, but ''most'' of us don't weigh 250lbs. To be considered fit at this weight, you would need to measure at least 7ft.
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Old 04-04-21, 08:59 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by chaadster
No, UST aren’t the only airtight tubeless tires. I ran first gen Schwalbe Pro One tires on American Classic Argent tubeless rims (non-UST) without sealant, no problem.

I’ve kind of lost track of what all the particular tubeless terminology refering to casing type means, e.g. “tubeless ready,” “Tubeless Easy,” “TLE,” “tubeless,” “tubeless TLR,” and all the rest, but basically some casings are lined to make them airtight, and some are not, relying instead on the sealant to make the casing airtight.
I'm curious what all exists that is full Tubeless for road that can inflate without sealant. I took a look at Schwalbe, most everything it appears is Tubeless Easy, meaning sealant req'd.
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Old 04-04-21, 09:20 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene
I'm curious what all exists that is full Tubeless for road that can inflate without sealant. I took a look at Schwalbe, most everything it appears is Tubeless Easy, meaning sealant req'd.
There aren't that many of there, but I think that it's pretty much moot, anyway. Whether or not sealant is required, adding some is a small and easy investment that yields great benefits.
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Old 04-04-21, 09:25 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by Racing Dan
Should be fairly obvious. Its a limp home system rather than race down steep hills on a flat system, like they make it appear at GCN. - And the price, I dunno, but combined with a TL tyre, that is already more expensive than clinchers, and sealant it does add up, especially if we are meant to replace the inserts at a yearly interval, at $40 per insert. Im sure lots couldn't care less, but the fear of flats and ppl insisting riding race day tyres, all the time, sure does drive a lot of business.

Me, I just put on a more robust clincher and ride. Haven't had a flat for ages and when I finally do, I pop in an new tube and be on my way in less time than I took to write this post :-) No special tools, other than my hands, a tyre lever and a basic pump is needed either.

Call me a luddite all you want, but this simply doesn't feel like real progress unlike SIS, hydraulic brakes, DI2, .. etc.
That’s it, that’s a winning strategy: “Nothing to see here, everyone! Ignore the stuff that might make your bike ride more enjoyable, and just use heavy, slow, tires like me. Stand with me, my fiends, on the side of a busy road in the rain and let’s fix our flats together with our bare hands and primitive tools!”

Lemme guess...does my reward for such existential deprivation earn reward in the afterlife? I know it’s not your place to say, but c’mon, man-to-man here, how many virgins do you think the Lord will grant me for sticking with innertubes?
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