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Are Cat 1 racers considered pros?

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Are Cat 1 racers considered pros?

Old 07-28-20, 11:27 AM
  #151  
colnago62
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A friend of mine got to know Charlie Walsh pretty well. https://cycling.org.au/nat/charlie-walsh. He told me that back in the day, Australia had a system they used to test natural talent/potential. If the rider didnít show a high enough level of natural talent/potential, the rider would not be accepted into the national program, regardless of how hard they worked or current wins.
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Old 07-28-20, 02:24 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
I might be misinterpreting his post, but I took it as Phil did NOT choose the right parents. At least what I've read of Phil's book he claims many times to NOT have had a good feeling about having the right parents. And he pushed for his dream anyway. He called it something like "real talent".

Again, from the book. I don't live in you guy's world.

As far as "real talent", it is relatable. I grew up playing golf with kids who spent their childhoods on the course and couldn't shoot par to save their lives (or save their quarters and dollars). "Real talent" in golf is the hand-eye-body coordination equivalent I guess of in endurance sport "having the right parents". Lessons and buckets of balls and hours at the course can help a lot. But if you know what you're doing, you can just look at somebody swing and know which person has a totally manufactured swing.........and the ones who use the resources to hone their "real talent". It's almost like seeing "natural beauty" versus a bunch of makeup and clothes.
Everyone wants to say they're not born with a genetic silver spoon, and I do think some are confused with having the right mindset. Positivity alone can get you far in many pursuits. In cycling, I don't think you have to be as genetically gifted as other sports, but you do have to have some natural ability.


Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
I have to agree with Ken. Hard work is very important. But it can only take you so far if you do not have the proper genetics. Alternatively, just having the proper genetics won't guarantee you success without also putting in the hard work.

For example, we all know that Barry Bonds used PEDs to increase his size and strength. But, studies also show that his eyes and brain see and process information faster than average, which allows him to respond to a 95 mph fastball, swing the bat and make a hit. Without that key advantage, it's doubtful he would have been as successful as he was, even with hardwork and PEDs. (As a reminder, his father was a pro baseball player too.)
Barry Bonds got a bad rap. I mean, yes he was a doper (though technically no since HGH and 'the cream' were technically not PEDs or banned) but he wasn't the only one and he was a late adopter of the trend which started in the late 80's. He just got fed up with the rest of league surpassing him and the FO letting it slide. Sorry totally tangential, I'm a huge Bonds homer, he was probably the best athlete to ever swing a bat.
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Old 07-28-20, 03:43 PM
  #153  
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The guys who are good are so much better than other folks. Yeah, other people can and do win. But I'm not sure why you'd think the elite in cycling is any less talented than the elite in any other sport.

Funny...Bonds on a cream..haha. That guy was on so much **** it would make your head spin.
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Old 07-28-20, 05:15 PM
  #154  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
The guys who are good are so much better than other folks. Yeah, other people can and do win. But I'm not sure why you'd think the elite in cycling is any less talented than the elite in any other sport.

Funny...Bonds on a cream..haha. That guy was on so much **** it would make your head spin.
Cycling as a sport doesn't have nearly the same pool as sports like Basketball, Running, or Soccer. For every young cyclist training to be a pro, there are 100 in those sports. Its simply a numbers game. That's not to say they're not talented. That's why I'm so high on NICA. A lot of high school kids in this country are planning to be pros because they were successful in NICA.
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Old 07-29-20, 10:26 AM
  #155  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
A friend of mine got to know Charlie Walsh pretty well. https://cycling.org.au/nat/charlie-walsh. He told me that back in the day, Australia had a system they used to test natural talent/potential. If the rider didnít show a high enough level of natural talent/potential, the rider would not be accepted into the national program, regardless of how hard they worked or current wins.
This is similar to baseball right now too. If you can throw 85-90 mph and run fast you can probably get a college scholarship. Good coaches and can mold raw talent and athleticism. A buddies roommate in college played D1 football, and even after sitting out almost an entire season from injuries and zero training, his first day back in the gym he benched 225x25 or something with no problem. You either have it or you donít.
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Old 07-31-20, 10:26 AM
  #156  
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Talent is absolutely real. You can watch 6 year olds play soccer and see very clearly that even at that age, some kids have it and some don't. Basic coordination, speed, etc.

Obviously hard work is an important piece of the puzzle, but we all know the cat 3 who trains like a madman but just can't keep moving up, doesn't get any faster. If you have the talent and the work ethic you'll be successful, but you absolutely gotta have both.
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Old 07-31-20, 12:29 PM
  #157  
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This book makes a good argument against that:

https://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overra.../dp/1591842948

I would say that this applies more to skill based pursuits than to purely athletic pursuits, so more so to the soccer and singing examples than to a marathon runner for example.

Last edited by wktmeow; 07-31-20 at 12:32 PM.
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Old 07-31-20, 01:12 PM
  #158  
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Originally Posted by JLTD View Post
Talent is absolutely real. You can watch 6 year olds play soccer and see very clearly that even at that age, some kids have it and some don't. Basic coordination, speed, etc.

Obviously hard work is an important piece of the puzzle, but we all know the cat 3 who trains like a madman but just can't keep moving up, doesn't get any faster. If you have the talent and the work ethic you'll be successful, but you absolutely gotta have both.
invariably the cat 3 who trains like a mad man has as his limiter an inability to rest and improve
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Old 07-31-20, 02:34 PM
  #159  
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Originally Posted by wktmeow View Post
This book makes a good argument against that:

https://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overra.../dp/1591842948

I would say that this applies more to skill based pursuits than to purely athletic pursuits, so more so to the soccer and singing examples than to a marathon runner for example.
B.S.

Talent is almost all that matters.

Hell, see Remco Evenepoel. After one year of riding, he won two world championships. After two years of riding, won a damn monument (at 19!). After three years of riding, is winning nearly every protour race he enters.

The less talent you have, the more hard work and "luck" you need. But all the guys at the top have more physiological "talent" than everyone else. It's not even an argument. Same goes for any field: music, science, engineering, politics, etc.
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Old 07-31-20, 03:05 PM
  #160  
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https://www.amazon.com/Talent-Code-G.../dp/055380684X
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Old 07-31-20, 03:12 PM
  #161  
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Haha, competing books! For sure an abnormal (in a good way) work ethic, strong motivation, big time self-belief can all make up for some talent gap, but I can't ignore talent. Like I said, even in very young kids, you can see it. There's a kid down the road who's 8, and he's absolutely an athlete. Destroys all the neighborhood kids in every game/sport they play, he's fast, little dude does standing backflips on grass. Don't know how it will play out for him as he grows up, but he's got athletic talent other kids clearly don't have.

As for the cat 3 who trains to hard for his own good, yes for sure that happens, agree with that.
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Old 07-31-20, 04:08 PM
  #162  
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Originally Posted by JLTD View Post
Haha, competing books! For sure an abnormal (in a good way) work ethic, strong motivation, big time self-belief can all make up for some talent gap, but I can't ignore talent. Like I said, even in very young kids, you can see it.
Absolutely. Go to any school's gym/PE class and it's unreal the massive differences in physical abilities.
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Old 07-31-20, 04:22 PM
  #163  
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That doesn't necessarily mean it is a *genetic* difference, or at least an *entirely* genetic difference. Family lifestyle, nutrition, activity levels as a toddler, etc, can all cause those differences to show up at a young age as well.

Really, it's the age old nature vs nurture argument. Obviously it's a bit of both. I'm of the opinion that it's more nurture than nature, but humans are complicated and there are many variables to control for so it would be very difficult to prove either way.
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Old 07-31-20, 05:24 PM
  #164  
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Originally Posted by wktmeow View Post
That doesn't necessarily mean it is a *genetic* difference, or at least an *entirely* genetic difference. Family lifestyle, nutrition, activity levels as a toddler, etc, can all cause those differences to show up at a young age as well.

Really, it's the age old nature vs nurture argument. Obviously it's a bit of both. I'm of the opinion that it's more nurture than nature, but humans are complicated and there are many variables to control for so it would be very difficult to prove either way.
I think it is more nurture than nature too. Both my kids were trained. Mom's genes were great, mine, OK. It was more focus and family value of excellence. I met other dads of 10 year olds that it was quite clear, they shared the values. 5 years later - same dads, kids at the top - it was pretty obvious how they were parented. It was mostly callable more looking at the parents than the athletes although the 10 year olds had a focus too.

Unlike big money sports, being a good cyclist is not an obvious career choice. It is dangerous, tedious, you need to live in Europe, and USAC is political. Then you need to be marketed. And the whole doping thing comes into play. You get blamed for winning. Or you dope. Neither are that great. When asked, we advised our kid to get out. We have some regrets, however I think the same choices would be made again.

Part of the issue is the USA "silver spoon" kid vs the Euro "working class kid". Most the USA kids pretty serious into cycling are well funded, or can be. Of course, not 100%, but USA kids have other options.
Many of the Euro kids look for cycling as a way out. Many do not have the options of the USA kids. In 2015 USA juniors won a pile (I think near 50%) of the Nations Cup races. Yet many of those kids no longer race.
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Old 07-31-20, 06:49 PM
  #165  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I think it is more nurture than nature too. Both my kids were trained. Mom's genes were great, mine, OK. It was more focus and family value of excellence. I met other dads of 10 year olds that it was quite clear, they shared the values. 5 years later - same dads, kids at the top - it was pretty obvious how they were parented. It was mostly callable more looking at the parents than the athletes although the 10 year olds had a focus too.

Unlike big money sports, being a good cyclist is not an obvious career choice. It is dangerous, tedious, you need to live in Europe, and USAC is political. Then you need to be marketed. And the whole doping thing comes into play. You get blamed for winning. Or you dope. Neither are that great. When asked, we advised our kid to get out. We have some regrets, however I think the same choices would be made again.

Part of the issue is the USA "silver spoon" kid vs the Euro "working class kid". Most the USA kids pretty serious into cycling are well funded, or can be. Of course, not 100%, but USA kids have other options.
Many of the Euro kids look for cycling as a way out. Many do not have the options of the USA kids. In 2015 USA juniors won a pile (I think near 50%) of the Nations Cup races. Yet many of those kids no longer race.
Say Iím wrong, buy pretty much the same reason the USMNT gets stomped by third world countries and canít even qualify for La Copa Mundial?

Just sounds familiar when you mention silver spoon and working class kids. In the US soccer fields are locked and pay to play. I donít think Pele grew up paying to play futbol.

Also, Euro kids might ride to school and town for years of their lives. Not so in the US much anymore.

Last Mundial....no USMNT. This Olympics....no menís track cycling team.

I would love to see both excel.
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Old 07-31-20, 07:54 PM
  #166  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
B.S.

Talent is almost all that matters.

Hell, see Remco Evenepoel. After one year of riding, he won two world championships. After two years of riding, won a damn monument (at 19!). After three years of riding, is winning nearly every protour race he enters.

The less talent you have, the more hard work and "luck" you need. But all the guys at the top have more physiological "talent" than everyone else. It's not even an argument. Same goes for any field: music, science, engineering, politics, etc.
He pulled an amazing win in Buergos in Spain. He dropped Chavez and Yates and rode solo to a mountain top finish.
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Old 07-31-20, 08:12 PM
  #167  
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I havenít read the book, but remember the buzz when it came out. I somewhat disagree with the premise. I am a musician who plays in a regional orchestra (Not one of the big boys). There is a local trumpet player named Alan Vizzuti. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Vizzutti
Talking with him, he was born with natural high range. He never had to work on it. He also has amazing pitch. Never had to work on it. Also his sound is incredible. He pretty much sounded great from the beginning. According to Al, he never really had to work at it. Now these are things the rest of us lesser players have had to spend years developing. He spent that time working other things, like being able to play the Carnival of Venice and its variations with his trumpet upside down. For an endurance athlete, if you have the ability to recover quickly for example, you are able to work much harder than everyone else. Now, other athletes may gain that ability after many years, but the person born with propensity for recovery has an advantage.
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Old 07-31-20, 08:20 PM
  #168  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Absolutely. Go to any school's gym/PE class and it's unreal the massive differences in physical abilities.
You see it at Jr. Nationals, too, especially around the 15-16. Some kid shows up and dominates all the endurance disciplines at 15 on the road and track, they usually are going somewhere if they stick with it.
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Old 07-31-20, 10:33 PM
  #169  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Say Iím wrong, buy pretty much the same reason the USMNT gets stomped by third world countries and canít even qualify for La Copa Mundial?

Just sounds familiar when you mention silver spoon and working class kids. In the US soccer fields are locked and pay to play. I donít think Pele grew up paying to play futbol.

Also, Euro kids might ride to school and town for years of their lives. Not so in the US much anymore.

Last Mundial....no USMNT. This Olympics....no menís track cycling team.

I would love to see both excel.
What are you talking about? They're sending male track racers to the Olympics. Unless they run out of money.
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Old 08-01-20, 12:08 AM
  #170  
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Natural ability is undoubtedly the major difference between those who win and those who are also-rans. Yes, natural physical talent and ability can be squandered if the mental aptitude is lacking but when both are present, the person with the best genetic code for the sport in question will win. This doesn't apply only to Elites, where the best of the best exist, it is filtered down and applies at all levels.

I ride with guys that can time trial better than I can despite our training being the same. Similarly, I'm still a faster sprinter than all but a few 20 yr olds in my region because that has always been my natural advantage, track and cycling since I was a kid. It's the same with every human trait and physical aspect - sure, everyone can improve at everything with dedication and training but the ones with the head start, generally keep that advantage when they do the same training and apply the same dedication because they are better built for it. No different to some folks being naturally smarter with a higher IQ.
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Old 08-01-20, 04:26 AM
  #171  
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Originally Posted by wktmeow View Post
That doesn't necessarily mean it is a *genetic* difference, or at least an *entirely* genetic difference. Family lifestyle, nutrition, activity levels as a toddler, etc, can all cause those differences to show up at a young age as well.

Really, it's the age old nature vs nurture argument. Obviously it's a bit of both. I'm of the opinion that it's more nurture than nature, but humans are complicated and there are many variables to control for so it would be very difficult to prove either way.
Sorry, that simply makes zero sense. Nurture doesn't account for a 90 VO2 max, or a photographic memory, or being 7 feet tall, or being primarily fast twitch, or having near-neurotic drive. Or even high calves that help you run faster [I have fat low calves, personally. ] Child prodigies are not prodigies because of nurture. Mozart's upbringing was not super atypical, and yet he was memorizing 30+ minute pieces of heinously complicated music after hearing it just two times when he was a boy. And there's not another Mozart

Sure, it's a bit of both, but innate ability is the precursor to anything. Without it, all the hardest hard work and motivation in the world doesn't matter. If it did, anyone could will themselves to anything. And we can't.
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Old 08-01-20, 05:20 AM
  #172  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I havenít read the book, but remember the buzz when it came out. I somewhat disagree with the premise. I am a musician who plays in a regional orchestra (Not one of the big boys). There is a local trumpet player named Alan Vizzuti. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Vizzutti
Talking with him, he was born with natural high range. He never had to work on it. He also has amazing pitch. Never had to work on it. Also his sound is incredible. He pretty much sounded great from the beginning. According to Al, he never really had to work at it. Now these are things the rest of us lesser players have had to spend years developing. He spent that time working other things, like being able to play the Carnival of Venice and its variations with his trumpet upside down. For an endurance athlete, if you have the ability to recover quickly for example, you are able to work much harder than everyone else. Now, other athletes may gain that ability after many years, but the person born with propensity for recovery has an advantage.

I'm not necessarily sure you entirely have the premise of the book. It's really that there are a wide variety of factors that influence greatness. Including, most importantly, relational factors. Kids who grow up in countries or programs that have high levels of any skill set have to elevate to the level to compete. Be it music, art, soccer, cycling, doctoring. Greatness inspires greatness. That isn't to say everyone is a blank slate, but if a skill isn't nurtured it has a much lower likelihood of going anywhere.
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Old 08-01-20, 08:53 AM
  #173  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
Say Iím wrong, buy pretty much the same reason the USMNT gets stomped by third world countries and canít even qualify for La Copa Mundial?

Just sounds familiar when you mention silver spoon and working class kids. In the US soccer fields are locked and pay to play. I donít think Pele grew up paying to play futbol.
....
You are right.
For being at the top - talent / both. But I think the OP (or later) which we have veered from a bit, was about cycling being a job - paying the bills. My gut is there are thousands of USA kids with the raw talent where they could get a job cycling and and buy a house and support a family. Thing is, that mental ability to train that hard, is likely genetic, and getting the right coaching, management and marketing is something else.
For the futbol ... like cycling USA men should live and play in Europe. I think the path is a bit more clear as there is so much money. The women, in the USA college as it is institutionalized and I think they are very much different games (men/women). A man playing in college has ended his carrier.
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Old 08-01-20, 11:15 AM
  #174  
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Originally Posted by tobukog View Post
What are you talking about? They're sending male track racers to the Olympics. Unless they run out of money.
I would of course prefer to be wrong, but no Lambie and no USA:

https://www.velonews.com/news/ashton...ns-fall-short/
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Old 08-01-20, 11:23 AM
  #175  
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Yeah, that article's not right. Lambie and the team pursuit team didn't qualify. They did, however qualify an Omnium rider, and a Madison team. And of course, the Women's riders who have a pretty good chance of medaling.
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