Helix Update?
#1926
Senior Member
Linberl, I tend to come from the perspective of how does the bike fit in the market it's aimed at, which is how I get caught up in "weight for a ti bike" and "folding compared to Brompton." I understand that's not your interest, but I wouldn't be able to explore it in a thread not devoted to Helix. So here I am! 🙂
#1927
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Brompton is almost entirely 1980s tech (primitive pusher system
It is made of cheap and heavy material (hi tensile steel, not even chro-mo), lacks quick release hinge system, has lousy external cable management, does not support proper derailleur solution etc... Most of them are addressed by other folders (and helix) over years.
It is made of cheap and heavy material (hi tensile steel, not even chro-mo), lacks quick release hinge system, has lousy external cable management, does not support proper derailleur solution etc... Most of them are addressed by other folders (and helix) over years.
Brompton components are made cheaply so they can be affordable. Anybody who put out something to the market knows how difficult it is to make a profit within products treated as a commodity. Yes, overall Brompton is expensive compared to other bikes but this is because its components are highly customized to achieve the fold. The product has to balance at a point where many people can still buy it. If someone claims that it can be done better, they should go ahead and provide the market with their own proposition. While common sense dictates that Helix must fail, they are due praise for trying.
I add photos ro show that I am not talking on empty.
Bike in tests
Absorbing slack.
Going for tangled mess.
Normal operation with primitive Brompton derailleur
#1928
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I don't know about anyone else, but I come here to read about and view videos on the Helix. I think the bike can be judged on its own merits rather than in comparison to other bikes that arent' the same size or technology. Maybe other bikes are reference points, but I'm getting bogged down in long passionate diatribes about why other bikes are superior -- maybe that should be left for threads about those bikes?.
- First, maybe the most important, the goal of the project is not to make a single batch of bikes but to start an Helix business, Comparison with competitors bikes is needed to guess if the Helix business can be successful. The success of the Helix business is also important for backers because it is the only way to guarantee the availability of the promised accessories and spare parts..
- Second, the KS campaign was very aggressive claiming "Helix™ - The World's Best Folding Bike", and Helix to be SMALLER (not true, and Helix is even bigger than promised) LIGHTER (not true, and Helix is almost 2kg heavier than promised, 11.38kg vs. 9.57kg), SAFER (not true because many other folders are safe, safety of Helix must still be proven), EASIER TO USE(still to be proven, but folded Helix doesn't roll on its two wheels as promised, the video showing the folding isn't really convincing, all utility equipment/accessories - front block, rack, mudguards - aren't available yet). So, it is normal that now that some Helix have been delivered to backers people compare Helix to its competitors to check if all these very strong and aggressive claims are true or just fake..
#1929
Stardust
chill out guys!
lets face this new bike!
i never think the can deliver a suspension bike with 9.7kg.
lets face this new bike!
i never think the can deliver a suspension bike with 9.7kg.
#1930
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I understand your concern, but there are two main reasons for all these comparisons:
- First, maybe the most important, the goal of the project is not to make a single batch of bikes but to start an Helix business, Comparison with competitors bikes is needed to guess if the Helix business can be successful. The success of the Helix business is also important for backers because it is the only way to guarantee the availability of the promised accessories and spare parts..
- Second, the KS campaign was very aggressive claiming "Helix™ - The World's Best Folding Bike", and Helix to be SMALLER (not true, and Helix is even bigger than promised) LIGHTER (not true, and Helix is almost 2kg heavier than promised, 11.38kg vs. 9.57kg), SAFER (not true because many other folders are safe, safety of Helix must still be proven), EASIER TO USE(still to be proven, but folded Helix doesn't roll on its two wheels as promised, the video showing the folding isn't really convincing, all utility equipment/accessories - front block, rack, mudguards - aren't available yet). So, it is normal that now that some Helix have been delivered to backers people compare Helix to its competitors to check if all these very strong and aggressive claims are true or just fake..
#1931
Senior Member
Linberl, where I think the Brompton comparisons come from is Peter's highly silly declaration that he was building The Best Folder In The World. That - and the original price points - automatically put it in competition with the almost universally accepted Best Fold For Commuting And Travel, which I think was a mistake. My brain would probably have always focused on best folding 24” wheel bike if he had introduced it that way. It's pretty clearly already that.
#1932
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I haven’t posted in a while. But I’ve waited 3 years or so years to see that exact YouTube video.
This bike is exactly what I waited for. Looks like epic quality and ocd engineering.
I will now just have to wait for mine and ride it.
clap clap bravo to helix for pulling this off. Worth the wait imo.
This bike is exactly what I waited for. Looks like epic quality and ocd engineering.
I will now just have to wait for mine and ride it.
clap clap bravo to helix for pulling this off. Worth the wait imo.
#1933
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Linberl, where I think the Brompton comparisons come from is Peter's highly silly declaration that he was building The Best Folder In The World. That - and the original price points - automatically put it in competition with the almost universally accepted Best Fold For Commuting And Travel, which I think was a mistake. My brain would probably have always focused on best folding 24” wheel bike if he had introduced it that way. It's pretty clearly already that.
I backed a device that advertised itself as the "easiest and fastest" - and when folks finally received their stuff, it was neither. Did the developer hope to deliver on his promises, who knows, perhaps only the dev deep in his heart. Was it just hyperbole to try to raise money? Probably. There's very little oversight in crowdfunding.
I guess Peter is guilty of getting people's hopes up and maybe not meeting those expectations but what matters now is did he deliver a good bike. I don't think any KS devs understand that generating business works best if you underpromise and overdeliver.
#1934
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Linberl, , I agree with you that there is marketing in every KS project, its part of the game. There is also marketing in any new product launch.
But for Helix, marketing was really very aggressive with claims that the new bike would be better in any aspects,size, weight, safety, ease of use, price compared to all its competitors.
Yes, you need to make promises to attract customers but creating unrealistic expectations is not good.
There was something similar with the Vellobike+ project where the creator promised a self charging ultra lightweight, very compact electric assist folding bike. Now that the bikes were delivered (not all of them and with also a big delay) and are available in bike shops, it appear that the bike is heavier and bigger than promised and that the electric assist is either very weak or works only on a very short distance (as anybody with experience in regeneration and technical knowledge knew from the beginning).
But for Helix, marketing was really very aggressive with claims that the new bike would be better in any aspects,size, weight, safety, ease of use, price compared to all its competitors.
Yes, you need to make promises to attract customers but creating unrealistic expectations is not good.
There was something similar with the Vellobike+ project where the creator promised a self charging ultra lightweight, very compact electric assist folding bike. Now that the bikes were delivered (not all of them and with also a big delay) and are available in bike shops, it appear that the bike is heavier and bigger than promised and that the electric assist is either very weak or works only on a very short distance (as anybody with experience in regeneration and technical knowledge knew from the beginning).
#1935
Widely Despised
About being the "best folder"....
https://smallbusiness.chron.com/puff...ing-24357.html
It's like advertising that Coors beer is the "most refreshing".
Has anyone here felt betrayed upon discovering that Coors
isn't really more refreshing than other beers?
https://smallbusiness.chron.com/puff...ing-24357.html
A company may....make vague claims about the product which cannot be proved or disproved.
This...is known as "puffery" — the advertiser "puffs up" the product to seem like more than it is.
Puffery is not illegal and is a common method used in advertising.
This...is known as "puffery" — the advertiser "puffs up" the product to seem like more than it is.
Puffery is not illegal and is a common method used in advertising.
Has anyone here felt betrayed upon discovering that Coors
isn't really more refreshing than other beers?
Last edited by Revoltingest; 03-02-19 at 07:54 AM.
#1936
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About being the "best folder"....
https://smallbusiness.chron.com/puff...ing-24357.html
It's like advertising that Coors beer is the "most refreshing".
Has anyone here felt betrayed upon discovering that Coors
isn't really more refreshing than other beers?
https://smallbusiness.chron.com/puff...ing-24357.html
It's like advertising that Coors beer is the "most refreshing".
Has anyone here felt betrayed upon discovering that Coors
isn't really more refreshing than other beers?
Many years ago Coors, "made from mountain spring water", was not sold in the east and it had a semi-mythical statuts. Guys would bring some home with them on the plane when they traveled to the west. Since then it has been bought out, most recently by the Annheuser Bush mob, and now it just tasties like Budweiser swill.
#1937
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Linberl, , I agree with you that there is marketing in every KS project, its part of the game. There is also marketing in any new product launch.
But for Helix, marketing was really very aggressive with claims that the new bike would be better in any aspects,size, weight, safety, ease of use, price compared to all its competitors.
Yes, you need to make promises to attract customers but creating unrealistic expectations is not good.
There was something similar with the Vellobike+ project where the creator promised a self charging ultra lightweight, very compact electric assist folding bike. Now that the bikes were delivered (not all of them and with also a big delay) and are available in bike shops, it appear that the bike is heavier and bigger than promised and that the electric assist is either very weak or works only on a very short distance (as anybody with experience in regeneration and technical knowledge knew from the beginning).
But for Helix, marketing was really very aggressive with claims that the new bike would be better in any aspects,size, weight, safety, ease of use, price compared to all its competitors.
Yes, you need to make promises to attract customers but creating unrealistic expectations is not good.
There was something similar with the Vellobike+ project where the creator promised a self charging ultra lightweight, very compact electric assist folding bike. Now that the bikes were delivered (not all of them and with also a big delay) and are available in bike shops, it appear that the bike is heavier and bigger than promised and that the electric assist is either very weak or works only on a very short distance (as anybody with experience in regeneration and technical knowledge knew from the beginning).
#1938
Senior Member
All true about KS, but (REPETITION ALERT) I'm still surprised by the weight. It just didn't make sense to me as the rider of a ti bike: If my ti road bike is lighter than my steel road bikes with similar components, then my brain thinks the ti folder should be in the range Peter predicted. But after watching the video WOW there's a lotta tubes and gizmos on that thing. I can see where the weight came from.
#1939
Schwinnasaur
It's great that it can be rolled on the back wheel, but if need to add fenders will it still roll? If you could add a rack then you could add easy wheels. Oh, where would mount the rack? I guess to the chain stays.
I acknowledge that it is easy to criticize. And I think important to do so. I also acknowledge that they have persevered, so far, in a Herculean task, to bring an inexpensive fresh designed titanium folder to market.
I acknowledge that it is easy to criticize. And I think important to do so. I also acknowledge that they have persevered, so far, in a Herculean task, to bring an inexpensive fresh designed titanium folder to market.
#1940
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All true about KS, but (REPETITION ALERT) I'm still surprised by the weight. It just didn't make sense to me as the rider of a ti bike: If my ti road bike is lighter than my steel road bikes with similar components, then my brain thinks the ti folder should be in the range Peter predicted. But after watching the video WOW there's a lotta tubes and gizmos on that thing. I can see where the weight came from.
#1941
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All true about KS, but (REPETITION ALERT) I'm still surprised by the weight. It just didn't make sense to me as the rider of a ti bike: If my ti road bike is lighter than my steel road bikes with similar components, then my brain thinks the ti folder should be in the range Peter predicted. But after watching the video WOW there's a lotta tubes and gizmos on that thing. I can see where the weight came from.
Really lightweight bike are bikes where every part has been studied from the beginning to be lightweight. Not bikes designed without taking weight into consideration on which weight savings measure have been applied later on.
#1942
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It's great that it can be rolled on the back wheel, but if need to add fenders will it still roll? If you could add a rack then you could add easy wheels. Oh, where would mount the rack? I guess to the chain stays.
I acknowledge that it is easy to criticize. And I think important to do so. I also acknowledge that they have persevered, so far, in a Herculean task, to bring an inexpensive fresh designed titanium folder to market.
I acknowledge that it is easy to criticize. And I think important to do so. I also acknowledge that they have persevered, so far, in a Herculean task, to bring an inexpensive fresh designed titanium folder to market.
#1943
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I completely agree with you,Helix uses a lightweight material but its design specificity makes it heavy: bigger heavier wheels, heavy folding fork, heavy helical hinge, heavy rear frame lock...
Really lightweight bike are bikes where every part has been studied from the beginning to be lightweight. Not bikes designed without taking weight into consideration on which weight savings measure have been applied later on.
Really lightweight bike are bikes where every part has been studied from the beginning to be lightweight. Not bikes designed without taking weight into consideration on which weight savings measure have been applied later on.
#1945
Senior Member
#1946
Schwinnasaur
The fact that it weighs like a steel bike, but is priced like a steel bike, is still a plus. It will resist rust and be springier.
#1948
Full Member
More posts going up:
https://youtu.be/4mkzRF3trJM
https://youtu.be/4mkzRF3trJM
#1950
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There is not a lot to win on the components: its a "naked bike" with few components, the transmission isn't high end but not heavy, same for the brakes, there are no other tires and no lightweight wheels in ETRTO 507. The only big weight savings on the components would require to use very expensive exotic components for the crank and brakes (something like the THM Clavicula SE crank, the Trickstuff Direttissima brake...).
The frame material is already lightweight, only possible saving is by using high end carbon manufacturing for some parts (seatpost, rear arm, fork tube, stem, handlebar, saddle...) but this would also increase a lot the price (look at the prices of Schmolke, AX-lightness, THM...).
More weight savings can only happen with a major frame redesign..