alextide

Hi All

I've seen some designs and pictures of folding wheels. I'd like to know what people would prefer to buy;

a) normal commuter bike
b) full size bike that folds with folding wheels
c) folding bike with small wheels (like a Brompton or Dahon)
Let's assume all the bikes work.

I've included some pictures of three different folding wheels I found online. What do you think of these?

Hoping for a good natured and serious discussion.

Thanks!
Alex

fietsbob

the first chapters of the Brompton book, included history..
noting a penny-farthing with a folding drive wheel,

made a bit more practical because the tires were always solid rubber anyhow..

alextide

Thanks fietsbob, nice of you to share. A folding penny farthing probably makes the most sense out of all bikes.

Stadjer

A bike needs good wheels, good at rolling. A folding bike is already a compromise with it's small wheels and wobbly frame. When is a bike compromised to the point it no longer rides as a decent bike? If you want transport even more compact, maybe consider a stand up electrical scooter for example? Or design a folding bike not to be more compact, but easier to handle when folded? I like the creativity and the design, but it doesn't strike me as the result of creative minds concentrating on a transport solution.

alextide

Hi Stadjer,
thanks for writing. I see your point. Out would be a trade off; instead of the small wheels and wobbly frame, you would have normal sized wheels. I think you don't that the wheels in the pictures could be good wheels. What if they did roll well, what would you think then?

I've ridden a few folding bikes and I didn't find them to have wobbly frames, but I see your point on compromises. The bikes I rode were definitely compromises as you say.
There are three designs in the original post. If they could be made so that the ride was compromised, then what? If it doesn't ride well, then I totally agree with you that the solution doesn't work.

I agree too that folding bikes should be aiming for ease of carry. Compact size is also important for some people who need to fit it in cars or on buses.

Hypothetically, let's imagined one of these designs worked .What would it take to convince you it works?

Stadjer

A ride probably. On the bike itself and on a train with it. I'd really like it to work, but if air filled tyres are still the best for any bike, I assume non air tyres are quite a compromise. I really llke thinking outside the box, but wheels are pretty essential to the ride, you really want play in that? One important quality of the wheel is that it's round and spreads all the forces over it's integral structure, you really want to sacrifice that quality for foldability? What degree of precision engineering and machining do you need to make it work and will it hold up to daily use? Or will any dent or dirt getting in a mechanism stop it from functioning and make it useless? Is a foldable big wheel better than a solid small wheel? Basically all bikes are simple sturdy contraptions, that's what makes them work so beautifully, take some abuse and what gives us sensory feedback that makes them easy to ride.

A folding bike is always a compromise, the question is what do you want to have compromised. The rigidity of the frame, the size of the wheels, the drive chain, the foldabiltiy and compactness, but the wheel itself wouldn't be my first choice. But it depends on the intended use, if you want to take it on the bus and tram and do small errands from there it should be handluggage size and weight and maybe not be a bike at all. If you take it on a train to do 10km of cycling it just needs to fit in the luggage space. I own a non folding compact bike that's a pretty good ride because the frame is rigid, maybe with a few minor changes it could be made suitable for that luggage space. You could also design the best riding bike possible that would still fit in a specific luggage space, and not make it foldable, that's thinking outside of the box too. I believe a folder or any compact bike should be compact enough for it's use, not as compact as possible. If two of them fit in the boot of a medium sized car for example, should it be any more compact at the expense of the ride? Should it be any more compact at the expense of easy handling the package? Is folding into a cube shape really more practical than a longer and narrower package?

I designed a folding bike once, just a sketch for the fun of it. It was quite creative because it was basically a unicycle with a small support and steering wheel trailing and a laid back riding position. When folded you could just pull it by the saddle with the wheel rolling and use it as shopping trolley. But then a friend who worked at an LBS for extremely sturdy used single speeds scrutinized it and to make it work it would need high tech, heavy metal and precision engineering.and probably another groundbreaking innovation or two. I don't want to compare my sketch to professional designers and engineer's work, but often in bike design we see one groundbraking idea, a eureka moment probably, that is hung on to because of it's charm through all the compromises in the rest of the bike necessary to make it work.

alextide

Hi Stadjer

Again thanks for the thoughtful reply. Apologies, there were several autocorrection in my last post that messed up some of the meaning, but I think you understood.

I've never seen a compact bike like that, it looks pretty nimble. Do you notice any difference with a solid/cast wheel versus a traditional wire spoked one? How much do you ride it? 10km, 5 times a week?

Yes, I imagined people would need a test ride, or loan to be convinced. Valid concerns on dirt/dents rendering any of those designs I posted unusable. "Is a foldable big wheel better than a solid small wheel?" - That is the question.

Very cool that you designed a bike, and I like your focus on the use, not a headline figure of size or weight. Is that picture of a train in the Netherlands?
Re. non-air tyres. They are a compromise. I've read some long term reviews that point out pro's and con's. I've tried Tannus for a short spell and I think they have their applications. The rent-a-bike companies have switched to non-air tyres such as nexo without too many complaints (or I missed them). Most people that knock non-air tyres seem not to have tried them, or be a different market.
Thanks for the thoughts, very helpful.
Enjoy your day!

Stadjer

No worries, I don't believe there was one, but misunderstandings aren't that much of a problem anyway.

I've used it a lot lately, because I was repairing my regular bike and that took a while. But it's a spare one, I like to have a bike available for visitors and this one fits all sizes and is easy to get in and out of the storage. I'm 6ft4 and it's not too small for me, but the saddle can get very low and the handlebars can tilt towards the saddle. I don't know about the wheels specifically because the bike as a whole has a bit of a BMX feel to it. Very agressive and nimble. I like it for short errands into the city centre, but for 3 to10 km journeys, which is long for me, I prefer my vintage upright 3-speed with it's big heavy wheels steamrolling at 20km/h in 3rd gear. The compact has no gears and feels quick on hard tyres, but on longer rides I'm very sensitive about the reward in speed for the energy spent, and it feels a tiny bit too slow. I certainly notice the difference with wire spokes, because the O-lock keeps getting blocked by one of the 3 spokes, then I have to turn the wheel and my fingers get dirty from the aluminium. It's also out of true a little, and I've no idea how to correct that.

It was a bit of a wild design in the late 90's. It came with a laptop backpack that fitted onto the handlebars. It wasn't a success and terminated quickly, probably because it had some design flaws. The rear fender was too short, wetting your back, I solved that with a mudflap. The O-lock, a necessity in the Netherlands, only leaves room for the key, anything connected to the key touches the heel. It was aimed at professionals with a laptop and probably in a suit but you don't want to put a naked metal key in the pocket of a wool suit, but the bike left no space to connect a leather poach to the key or another key for a chain lock. The chain guard was also a bit minimal for riding in a suit.

I'm genuinely curious about the answer, I like fresh ideas, I'm just not very confident any of these will be better.

Yes, but I don't know if the luggage space is standardized for all the different types of trains. But they have the rule that if it fits in a luggage space the bike counts as luggage, and the 6 euro for taking a bike doesn't have to be paid. The Netherlands probably isn't very interesting to the folder market, but if you have a standard luggage space in a different country's railroad network a bike that only just fits in there might be a great commuter's solution.

I've never tried them, but don't forget that the air helps spreading the force over the whole rim too. So you'll probably need a stronger wheel for non-air tyres even when it doesn't fold.

Are you designing a folding bike, or just folding wheels, or are you researching the market?

alextide

All that is great information.
I'm looking into the folding bike market, so when I came across some of the folding wheels, I wondered what people thought of them.

Regarding your bent wheel, I don't think there is a good way to true it. Perhaps machining on a lathe, or buying a new one.

prathmann

Yes, they do have their applications, but with some pretty substantial compromises in rolling resistance and ride comfort. They're fine for the short distances that are typically ridden on bike-share systems and in situations where tire punctures would otherwise be a severe problem. But I wouldn't care to go on longer distance rides (say 60+ miles) or on a multi-day tour on any of the non-pneumatic tires currently on the market. OTOH, I have no qualms about taking my folder with 20" conventional wheels on century rides and on extended bike camping tours.

fietsbob

Happily using 2 Folding bikes with 349, 16" wheels ,,
and a Bike Friday with 406, 20" wheels..
The bike's frames have folding features ,
the wheels themselves, do not fold...

WillAdams

Concept bike with folding wheels:

https://www.tuvie.com/urban-bicycle-...-wheel-system/

WillAdams

And here's a folding wheel developed as a product in and of itself:

https://newatlas.com/revolve-foldabl...r-wheel/52966/

CrewFan

Wow, that's a really interesting concept! I like that the wheel was designed with multifunctionality in mind!

alextide

Will thanks for sharing those. The revolve wheel is the last photo in my original post, so thanks for sharing the link so people can see the fold in action. How do you like your Montague 26er?

Andrea Mocellin has made something unique. I doff my cap to him!

What do you guys think of his design?

WillAdams

I've been thrilled w/ my Montague, aside from the problem of having over-accessorized it to the point that it doesn't fold as well as it does (and I hate the lawyer lips on the front fork which make it so difficult to remove the front wheel) --- but I don't have much basis to compare (just had a pair of anonymous 10 speeds and a Huffy Windsprint 15-speed when I was younger, and rode my daughter's Trek for a while). I need to look into putting a disk brake on the rear wheel so that I can reposition the Axa Victory lock so it'll fold properly again, or maybe I'll remove it --- I don't use it, since at this point I just commute, and since it's a folder it comes up to be next to my desk.

alextide

Glad to hear that Will. Why do you keep it by your desk and not in a bike rack etc? Do your colleagues mind and where do other people store their bikes at work? So I guess this means you fold the bike once a day? Why did you choose a Montague and not a regular bike or a small wheeler?

I think the Tuvie design concept is cool, but has a lot of moving parts, so getting rid of squeaks and rattles would be hard.

WillAdams

Since I keep the bike inside at home, I don't want it outside getting pine sap dripped on it (the cycle parking area is shaded by a pine tree), and there are some racks near one of the entrances, but that's not an entrance which is convenient for me to use..

I work in the office area of a semi-industrial space, so no problems with folding the bike (it makes it easier to navigate the stairs) then storing it by my desk.

Chose the Montague 'cause I've always been fascinated w/ folding and small things and liked the aesthetics of it, and the history, having read about the Tidal Force Waverider version developed for DARPA: https://www.electricbike.com/tidal-force/ and just can't bring myself to consider the ones w/ tiny wheels.

Search for "blacked out montague swissbike" and my over-accessorized ride should pop right up.

Darth Lefty 

Those are fascinating. But while I was thinking about why they seemed like they’d be heavy, I came up with a completely different thought.

A traditional circular wheel is kind of wasteful of material and space. At any given time the bottom spikes are doing the largest strain and only a few inches of tire are touching the ground. The wheel is in compression and hardly strained at all, which is why it’s ok to make it from aluminum. What if the wheel and tire were replaced with a little tank tread? Half a foot long. Could you make it have a similar rolling resistance? You could have a fork as big as the one on a Razor scooter, and suspension to stand in for the lost pneumatic tire.

Stadjer

It would be much more practical if it was fixed to a single stay, only at one side of the wheel so you don't have to take the wheel out.