Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me
#76
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People these days who are average recreational riders are sold design and technology developed and only really helpful for road racing. Lycra kit, $300 helmets, electronic shifting, fragile sub 15lb frames, low spoke wheels, heart rate monitors, power meters, gps linked computers, CO2 cartridges, etc... Consider that most people who buy race designed bikes never enter a bicycle race.
What people here think of as "average recreational riders" aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing (**).
Most "enthusiast riders" (maybe, who you are talking about?) aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing either.
The people in the second group are much more likely to (now) buy "endurance" frames that can take 25/28 mm tires.
===============
** I'm assuming you mean "sub 15lib bicycles".
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Lighten up, Francis. Except OP and you, pretty much everyone else here is being pretty polite even when they disagree.
Only point I'm making is sometimes people lose perspective on how much "serious" cycling is done on very cheap equipment. Don't try to enlist me in your holy war.
I think you might have something interesting to say about the Grant Petersen paradox--he seems to be writing about bikes for the "everyman" potential rider, but he builds bikes for people who are willing to pay relatively large sums for bikes whose primary appeal are reliability and opulence. Think you could drop the baseball bat and actually write substantively on topic for a change?
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HA! Shows what YOU know! The point of having an "Ignore List" is to TELL people you're ignoring them, like when you were a kid and you told your sibling - repeatedly - that you weren't talking to him/her.
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I have a philosophy that says buying cheap wheelsets is better than buying mid-range. Expensive wheelsets try to be light and durable, cheap ones tend to be durable but heavy. Middle-range ones tend to be lighter than cheap, but not as durable.
I buy a mid-range wheelset, I'm spending a lot of time getting the wheels trued. Pothole avoidance is not one of my better skills.
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They don't realize that it's a benefit to the person who is placed on the ignore list.
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Grant Petersen should get credit for chapping the asses of so many people on BF.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 12:28 PM.
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I have a philosophy that says buying cheap wheelsets is better than buying mid-range. Expensive wheelsets try to be light and durable, cheap ones tend to be durable but heavy. Middle-range ones tend to be lighter than cheap, but not as durable.
I buy a mid-range wheelset, I'm spending a lot of time getting the wheels trued. Pothole avoidance is not one of my better skills.
I buy a mid-range wheelset, I'm spending a lot of time getting the wheels trued. Pothole avoidance is not one of my better skills.
I was happy ten years ago, paying over $600 for a set of custom wheels for my Battaglin from a very good local wheelmaker, because he promised me that even at my then-weight, he could build me a 28/32 wheelset with butted spokes that would last for years of riding. And he did, and they have. They finally needed a little bit of truing after about 6000 miles, and hitting a pothole so hard it tossed my bottles out of the cages. It was just enough wobble that I couldn't run my brakes as close to the rim as I like, which is real close.
OTOH, when the Fulcrum Racing 5s on my 2006 Bianchi developed cracks at the spoke holes, I went for a direct replacement with 2020 Racing 5s, but still hesitated at the $250 price from PBK. I got over it.
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I try to keep the "you're on my list" message down to one--the last one to them ever. Anything else looks kind of stupid.
Problem comes up when someone on my ignore list gets quoted talking about me. Unless the person quoting them is on my ignore list, I'm going to see it and notice it.
I've had a few where I get so sick of an argument, I put them on the list to avoid getting trolled back in, then realize literally no one but me ever quotes that person despite their voluminous posts. Gotta figure they're on a bit more than a few lists.
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I think you've mischaracterized his stance a bit. His point is that a lot of people are being driven away from bicycling because the marketing is pushing the idea that ordinary riding requires people to be kitted out as if they were racing. In his view, people are either being conned into over-spending for features that are unsuitable for the type of riding they're really going to be doing with false promises that these features will make them faster, or they're just not going to take up biking because they don't want to dress up like low-rent astronauts.
Petersen can't really compete with the rest of the industry. So, he competes against it (appealing to a niche market). Rivendell bikes are expensive enough to have the same sort of problem "requires people to be kitted out" does (it's kind of expensive/exclusive either way). Petersen also appears to relish being "contrarian".
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 12:30 PM.
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???
What people here think of as "average recreational riders" aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing (**).
Most "enthusiast riders" (maybe, who you are talking about?) aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing either.
The people in the second group are much more likely to (now) buy "endurance" frames that can take 25/28 mm tires.
===============
** I'm assuming you mean "sub 15lib bicycles".
What people here think of as "average recreational riders" aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing (**).
Most "enthusiast riders" (maybe, who you are talking about?) aren't buying bikes anything like (or as expensive) as what you are describing either.
The people in the second group are much more likely to (now) buy "endurance" frames that can take 25/28 mm tires.
===============
** I'm assuming you mean "sub 15lib bicycles".
As to what what the industry is pushing; walk into a modern Trek store and tell me what you think.
One can argue the bits and pieces of what I wrote but the basic premise stands. The current industry is pushing in one direction, People like GP offer a counter balance.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-21-20 at 01:19 PM.
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??? I don't think many of the Rivendell frames are 15 pounds or more. I don't think the frame of my touring bike is anywhere near that heavy.
The industry has been doing this for years. In any case, they aren't really pushing these on "average recreational riders".
Rivendell bikes are fairly expensive. They aren't being sold to "average recreational riders". It's elitism too but a different type of elitism.
Yes.
Rivendell bikes are fairly expensive. They aren't being sold to "average recreational riders". It's elitism too but a different type of elitism.
Yes.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 01:27 PM.
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You aren't making much sense. That's on you.
What sort of 15 pound frames are you talking about? (It would make somewhat more sense if you were talking about frame sets.)
Whatever Petersen is saying, he isn't selling bikes to "average recreational riders".
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 01:37 PM.
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You win the "I can't make an argument so I'll resort to insults" award.
You aren't making much sense. That's on you.
What sort of 15 pound frames are you talking about? (It would make somewhat more sense if you were talking about frame sets.)
Whatever Petersen is saying, he isn't selling bikes to "average recreational riders".
You aren't making much sense. That's on you.
What sort of 15 pound frames are you talking about? (It would make somewhat more sense if you were talking about frame sets.)
Whatever Petersen is saying, he isn't selling bikes to "average recreational riders".
The lawyer says to confirm 15lb bicycle so this doesn't go on for 5 pages. What's a liv?
And we already covered the disconnect between what he writes and sells many posts back. Probably someone should have explicitly pointed that out as you couldn't be expected to inform yourself.
Your attempt to discredit by fixating on what anyone else could easily understand is the insult in a reasonable discussion. It's lazy, and what someone without anything constructive to say.. says.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-21-20 at 01:51 PM.
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I asked what you meant and you repeated that you meant frames (not bicycles).
"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles either.
It make no sense to go on about frames when you mean bicycles. That's on you!
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 02:22 PM.
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??? You said 15 pound frame. Twice.
I asked what you meant and you repeated that you meant frames (not bicycles).
"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles either.
It make no sense to go on about frames when you mean bicycles. That's on you!
I asked what you meant and you repeated that you meant frames (not bicycles).
"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles either.
It make no sense to go on about frames when you mean bicycles. That's on you!
Focusing on what is an obviously understood error while making one yourself is "on you" as you would say.
Srsly.. did you really think I meant the current industry is pushing advanced technology towards recreational riders with sub 15lb frames? Or would a reasonable person assume I meant sub 15 lb bikes. Try not to play the darling innocent to hard.
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I smell a stinky sock.
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In the context of this discussion a reasonable person would know what I meant.
Keep digging!
You could have said you meant bicycle and avoided all this.
"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles either.
So, even with the non-correction correction, you still don't make sense.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 03:16 PM.
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Don't hurt your hand patting your back.
Did you have anything meaningful to say in this thread or is your contribution only going to be limited to proofreading other peoples ideas?
I like to argue ideas not people. #bored .
Did you have anything meaningful to say in this thread or is your contribution only going to be limited to proofreading other peoples ideas?
I like to argue ideas not people. #bored .
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[QUOTE=Happy Feet;21706071]
I like to argue ideas not people. #bored .
No, you like to argue about typos.
"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles.
"Average recreational riders" aren't typically buying sub-15 pound bicycles.
Last edited by njkayaker; 09-21-20 at 03:17 PM.