Sure, 23mm may not be hot now, but are they dead-dead?
09-23-20, 10:49 AM
#51
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Don't get me wrong, the PDX is a great tire, but I feel like I went through all the hassle and cost of getting tubulars, only to end up with a tire that lacks the "magic" and rides pretty much the same as a tubeless clincher. Maybe the Challenge tires are just superior in this regard.
09-23-20, 11:06 AM
#52
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It's all relative. Starting around 2011 we used to have a road race here that involved about 30%-40% gravel. At the time the tech recommendation was "maybe think about putting on 25's if you have them and can find them and they can fit".
The same race today would have people putting on 36's.
It's 2mm. I would venture a guess that it wasn't actually as much of a difference as you think it was. Pressure and tire compound make a larger difference.
The same race today would have people putting on 36's.
It's 2mm. I would venture a guess that it wasn't actually as much of a difference as you think it was. Pressure and tire compound make a larger difference.
It's a fallacy to separate tire pressure from tire width. I can run 50 psi on 32mm TL tires at my weight. I have to run 23s at twice that to avoid pinch flats running into a 6-feet long metal bridge joint jutting up over the path in the wet (tubed because no way would I want to try TL at high pressures, nor bunny hopping that distance over a slippery surface if I had the skill to even do so). Even dropping from 100 psi to 85 with a 25mm makes a huge difference, because the former is as solid as a rock with absolutely no give and the latter is at a threshold where I start to detect pneumatic suspension. And my experience with 23-25-28mm widths is with the same tires: GP4Kii and Pro4 Endurance. So no, I disagree that pressure and compound make more of a difference than width.
09-23-20, 12:41 PM
#53
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What if sealant technology continues to improve. Let's say in a few years, there is a lovely sealant that stays wet until needed, and a few teaspoons will do it. Basically what we have now, just better, more reliable, etc.
You could argue that this would only strengthen the adoption of tubeless rims for road riders. But tubeless rims have drawbacks -- the worst among them, in my opinion, is fragility. It's far easier to crack a bead. And when tubeless tires blowout, it can be dangerous. Plus, they are a tiny bit heavier.
So, maybe the next gen sealant gets people on what's been the best road tire all along: the tubular. The main knock against the tubular is that they are a hassle when they flat. Take that away, why not give them a shot? Just about every Tour pro chooses them.
If that happens, tire sizes could shrink a size again. A 23 mm tubular is common and absorbs bumps as well, if not far better, than any 25 mm clincher.
Really just a thought exercise. Anything can happen. A global collapse could also cause all kinds of problems and we could be running narrower tires because of latex shortages or some awful thing. Who knows.
You could argue that this would only strengthen the adoption of tubeless rims for road riders. But tubeless rims have drawbacks -- the worst among them, in my opinion, is fragility. It's far easier to crack a bead. And when tubeless tires blowout, it can be dangerous. Plus, they are a tiny bit heavier.
So, maybe the next gen sealant gets people on what's been the best road tire all along: the tubular. The main knock against the tubular is that they are a hassle when they flat. Take that away, why not give them a shot? Just about every Tour pro chooses them.
If that happens, tire sizes could shrink a size again. A 23 mm tubular is common and absorbs bumps as well, if not far better, than any 25 mm clincher.
Really just a thought exercise. Anything can happen. A global collapse could also cause all kinds of problems and we could be running narrower tires because of latex shortages or some awful thing. Who knows.
Personally I completely hate tubeless, the tighter rims are just a stupid waste of time and the system is just a mess to deal with while there's no discernible benefit that I've discovered. Had more flat issues on my MTB running offroad tubeless then I did with tubes, wife's bike has done better but then remembering to add more before its no good isn't great when you maintain a fleet. Tubes are just easier.
I've seriously considered the idea of tubular now that the sealant is available but at the end of the day I never noticed the ride of a high end vittoria being anything special compared to the high end challenge cotton open tubulars I ran at the same time.
09-23-20, 01:05 PM
#54
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Do the LGG's ride like traditional tubulars? My experience with tubulars is for CX racing and my Donnely PDX's (tubeless tubulars) are not as supple as the Challenge tubulars I used to have. I love that I can add sealant to them and I'll definitely get more miles out of them, but I was mildly disappointed that they felt stiff in comparison... which I assume is a downside to this type of tubeless tubular construction?
Don't get me wrong, the PDX is a great tire, but I feel like I went through all the hassle and cost of getting tubulars, only to end up with a tire that lacks the "magic" and rides pretty much the same as a tubeless clincher. Maybe the Challenge tires are just superior in this regard.
Don't get me wrong, the PDX is a great tire, but I feel like I went through all the hassle and cost of getting tubulars, only to end up with a tire that lacks the "magic" and rides pretty much the same as a tubeless clincher. Maybe the Challenge tires are just superior in this regard.
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09-23-20, 09:25 PM
#55
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The universe is really trying to get me to switch to 700x25. I ordered a pair of Pro One 700x23 Tubeless because they were on sale, and I need a new tire soon. I was sent a 700x23 and a 700x25, grr. I'm fine with the 25mm logic, but they just don't work for me. The 23's already measure 25mm wide, and I'm 160lbs so I don't need a lot of cushion, with tubeless, I can already run them at 80 psi. The real issue is that I still have fairly narrow rims (Shimano C24), so a fully inflated 700x25 won't fit through the brake pads to remove the front wheel. Minor issue, but really annoying when you're loading the bike into a car trunk.
09-25-20, 07:54 AM
#56
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I'm sure manufacturers work closely with tire (and wheel) manufacturers to plan for future products, so it's entirely possible that they're all working on aero bikes/wheels designed around larger tire sizes. I'm sure there's a point of diminishing returns on aero, weight and rolling resistance, but it's pretty clear that 23mm is no longer the sweet spot for that. Maybe it's 25mm? Maybe it's 28mm?
