chas58

check your pockets...

chas58

US cycling has, in the past, ignored track cycling, partially because they didn’t seem to understand it. But that is changing with groups around the country really stepping up. Olympic qualifying doesn’t all have to be at the same venue, nor on a 250m track. Different qualifying events could be held all around the country. For instance, Madison qualifying can be done on a 166m track (and it’s a lot more fun for the rider that way anyway!), with other events held at venues around the US. Besides, if you can master a 166m track, you can ride on any track.

Europeans obviously are an inspiration, with the 6 day at Ghent on a 166m track a standout.
Six Day Amsterdam | Baanwielrennen | Zesdaagse van Amsterdam | Six Day | Nikki Terpstra
Thus the inspiration to do something similar around the US. There are multi use state of the art velodrome sports complexes proposed or under development around the country. Along with the velodrome, the plans often include other things that would appeal to a broader audience, such as community outreach and children’s programs. Amenities often include a BMX track, state of the art timing systems, light and sound systems, walking track, air supported roof, & a 166-200m velodrome track

For Detroit:
A goal of the Detroit velodromes (the current one and our second one) has always been to get youth engaged with a healthy sport, and possibly provide a path to an Olympic dream. We have had plenty of youth metal winners in nationals, and more recently had our volunteers work closely with inner city youth to give them access to velodrome cycling at IVBP. But of course, it is easier for urban riders if the track is in the city and not just the burbs. Besides, the races between the city folk and the suburban gang is going to be epic!!! Two active velodromes in one metro area!

Just like the current velodrome, there will be a strong youth program that is free for our young riders. Last I heard, Detroit will have amenities such as a senior walking track, and a BMX track. It will open in about a year (Fall 2017), and is located between Eastern Market and the Wayne state, near downtown, with easy highway access. Detroit has had an amazing explosion of bicycling in the last years, with thousands of people showing up to some weekly and monthly rides. Sometimes I miss the days when it was more intimate and underground, but all in all its better having such a large strong community (just gets more crowded). FYI, the director of the Detroit project has built many of the velodromes around the country and around the world in the last 20 years.

There is talk of more of this around the country, but they are not cheap or easy. As I recall, there is one planned in Connecticut;
There is one under construction in Pittsburg
Construction Updates | Island 200 Velodrome
Here is one planned in Minnesota:
https://gearjunkie.com/minnesota-cycling-center

queerpunk

I think the Pittsburgh construction stalled out completely. And I'm not sure the status of the hoped-for one in Minnesota, but I don't think it got the state funding it was looking for in the recent bonding cycle.

chas58

Yeah, more often than not, these more involved indoor tracks fizzle out...
Even that little outdoor track in Chicago struggled and fizzled. Cleveland (166m outdoor) still seems to be going strong last I heard.

carleton

I've always thought that 166m, albeit less expensive to develop, isn't a good idea. From what I hear, sprinting is difficult on them. Not to mention the steep angles and whatnot. Plus you can only have a few people on the track at once..

I think that 333M is the best for a "community track" (like TTown). And 250M is the smallest to get some traction with with regards to participation.

carleton

So, I think organizers may think, "I'd rather have a 166m track than nothing!". I'd rather that they not settle for 166m because it may be less popular for being so short and steep.

Yes, the Kuipke (Ghent) velodrome is popular and 166M, but that seems to be the exception and not the rule.

taras0000

Forest City Velodrome is 142m and it has proven to be quite successful. Even with the Milton velodrome 2 hours away it's still seeing decent participation, albeit a little less. There was a strong local following that grew once it was built, and people started to come from hours away. It all depends on how commited the community is to using it. There was a very small track cycling community in southern Ontario that was really die hard about track racing. Once we had a decent velodrome (the previous one was an outdoor, asphalt, bumpy 250m with 22 degree banks, and 8 degree straights), the infection started to spread. Now, the new blood is keeping the sport going as the old blood has petered out. It's all about being able to get the next generation out on the boards. Get the kids out, and about half will stick with it into adult hood, and about a quarter after that. As long as you can keep it turning over, it will work. There are classes of 10 year olds riding FCV, so it can be done. The only thing you can't really do that effectively is sprint on such a short velodrome. 250s and 333s really let you use a full range of speeds and tactics that shorter velodromes don't allow.

caloso

There was a bit of fanfare for an outdoor velodrome here in Sacramento, but that seems to have fizzled out as well.

chas58

good point. FCV is steep and fun!

I do rather like the tactics that one can use on a small track with steep banking. The 333m tracks are more like road riding in a circle.

The reason these are 166m is because they are indoor tracks in a northern climate that can be used year round. Construction costs for an indoor track are going to go up dramatically with size. Besides, the new166m tracks in Cleveland and Chicago seem to be doing fine as far as the track goes (Chicago has non track related issues), and these 166m tracks are portable (they can be deconstructed and moved in 24 hours).

rm -rf

I reformatted your very interesting post:

Forest City Velodrome is 142m and it has proven to be quite successful. Even with the Milton velodrome 2 hours away it's still seeing decent participation, albeit a little less. There was a strong local following that grew once it was built, and people started to come from hours away.

It all depends on how committed the community is to using it. There was a very small track cycling community in southern Ontario that was really die hard about track racing. Once we had a decent velodrome (the previous one was an outdoor, asphalt, bumpy 250m with 22 degree banks, and 8 degree straights), the infection started to spread. Now, the new blood is keeping the sport going as the old blood has petered out.

It's all about being able to get the next generation out on the boards. Get the kids out, and about half will stick with it into adult hood, and about a quarter after that. As long as you can keep it turning over, it will work. There are classes of 10 year olds riding Forest City Velodrome, so it can be done.

The only thing you can't really do very effectively: sprint on such a short velodrome. 250s and 333s really let you use a full range of speeds and tactics that shorter velodromes don't allow.

taras0000

Next time at least use some red "correction" font and maybe add a letter grade or something.

chas58

Now this is public, and it is official. Ground breaking is done and completion set for fall 2017. Now we will have two velodromes. I can see the rivalry now...

Detroit breaks ground on $4M facility to include indoor velodrome | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

carleton

Nice!

Length?

chas58

166m. Nice and tight! LOL. Same basic design as the one's he made for Chicago and Cleveland lately. Marketed as the second indoor velodrome in the US.

chas58

I didn't want to answer this until it was official, but its coming from an unnamed private philanthropist who wanted to make a difference and leave a legacy. Looks like it is about a 4 million dollar project.

carleton

Jeez. I guess they don't ever want to host:

- Jr. Track Nationals
- Elite Track Nationals
- Masters Track Nationals
- World Cup
- Pan Am
- World Championships
- Olympic Games
- Intergalactic Track Championships


Has USA Cycling or the UCI ever hosted any of those events on anything smaller than a 250M track?

700wheel

These are the UCI regulations:

Length 3.6.068

The length of the track must lie between 133 metres and 500 metres inclusive.

The length of a track shall be such that a whole number of laps or half laps shall give a distance of precisely 1 kilometre, with a tolerance of + 5 centimetres.

For the World Championships and the Olympic Games the length must be 250 metres. In the interest of the development of track cycling, the UCI may grant a special dispensation for Velodromes already in use.

Looks like a 166m track would fail the 'whole number of laps' criteria.

carleton

Good catch.

For those wondering, the reason that the rule that "The length of a track shall be such that a whole number of laps or half laps shall give a distance of precisely 1 kilometre" is necessary, it's because it makes it possible to start and end races either on the same start/finish line (250M track) or start on the back straight on the mid-track line and end on the home straight on the finish line.

Otherwise, you have to start 3K and 4K time trials at odd spots on the track. For example, at DLV (327m?), in order to have a 4km rider finish at the finish line, he must start right before he enters turn 3. So, what usually happens is that he spends the first several pedal strokes of the event riding on the apron then enters the track after turn 4 (which is illegal). It's very difficult to have a 100+ inch gear and go from 0mph AND stay on a 36degree track at the same time. It's a mess. As a result, DLV recently went to 1.5, 3, 6, 9, and 12 lap time trials just to make things easier.

chas58

Well Dale has been working with the UCI for several years to educate them on track cycling, as they seemed to have had little knowledge of the Discipline.

This track is targeted to host Olympic trial events, which are not limited to 250 meters (and can potentially be held as separate events across the country).

abbynemmy

Track website, https://detroitfitness.org

carleton

OK. I'll bite.

Who is Dale and what info did he give the UCI that they didn't already have?

Why does Dale think that a 166M track is as good (or better) than a 250M track?

What Olympic trial events? There are no Olympic trials in the US anymore. I don't think there have been any since the lead-up to the 1996 Games.

You do understand the limitations of hosting time trials on tracks that are lengths that are not functions of 1KM as described above? How does a 166M track handle that?

While I appreciate the effort, in my humble opinion, a 166M track is a bad idea. The only 2 good things about a 166m track are the fact that they are less expensive to build and it's easier to take a lap on the field when racing on them.

Seriously, will someone explain to me why 166M tracks keep coming up? There was Chicago, NYC, this one, I think another one proposed. Who is asking for these? Who is pushing these? Who is selling these?

Dalai

@carleton Dale is the track designer - name mentioned in the article.

taras0000

Cost is the biggest factor, but space (availability, and ongoing costs associated with it) is a big one as well. When it comes to 166m tracks, it is much easier to find a location/land that can house it (even pre-existing warehouses will work), less expensive for the track build itself, and the ongoing costs associated with running an arena type building are much smaller with a 166 vs a 250.

Construction costs multiply much faster in an open span building the larger it gets. It requires more engineering and more expensive material. Indoor spaces in North America will have to be heated for the most part, if not cooled as well. The costs do not increase linearly, but closer to exponentially. It is also easier to couple a smaller venue like this into a much larger shared facility as well.

Having more 250m tracks pop up would be nice, but it's much easier to sell a Civic than it is a Ferrari.

Brian Ratliff

Just like a 333 track would really 333.33m in length to make it 3 laps to a kilo, a 166 track would be 166.67m making it 6 laps to a kilo. I am not sure if 333 tracks are actually 333.33m in length, or 166 tracks are 166.67m in length, but I would assume a track designer will give the extra 67cm per lap to avoid breaking the rule.

I wouldn't mind a 166 indoor track. Sounds like a lot of fun. Way better than rolling on rollers all winter. Put a freeweight gym in the middle and it'd be awesome. Honestly, I think the rule dictating track length, material construction, air conditions (temperatures, humidity, etc.), etc has kind of killed the sport. It's become way too clinical. Let's get some tracks together that have character to match the communities they are built in. If it means pros are racing 333m tracks one day and 166m tracks the next together with 250s and the occasional 400... what of it? It's bike racing, not basketball.

abbynemmy

Found this on Dale Hughes.

Designer & Builder of World Class Velodromes.
1996 Atlanta Olympic Velodrome
1997 SuperDrome in Texas
2002 Asian Games Velodrome in South Korea
2006 Asian Games Velodrome in Qatar
2008 Beijing Disabled Sports Velodrome in China
2010 Commonwealth Games Velodrome in India
2011 Astana Velodrome in Kazakhstan
2011 Velodrome in South Chicago
and a few in between and more to come in 2012!

Dale Hughes is a resident of Rochester Hills and donated his talents to design and build the IVBP. He has a lifetime of experience in the world of cycling. Hughes initiated a drive to bring back indoor board track racing when he designed and built his first — and the country’s only portable — velodrome in the late 1970s. The 125m Madison Velodrome was the venue for the first-ever U.S. Madison National Championships and was transported and erected in arenas around the nation. Dale became permanently related to the highly successful Wolverine Sports Club coach Mike Walden when he married his daughter Christine Walden in 1971.

Dale’s most recognizable domestic velodrome project was construction of the 1996 Atlanta Olympic Velodrome. He owns the company V-Worldwide which designs velodromes across the globe. He built the 2002 Asian Games Velodrome in Seoul, Korea, the Superdrome in Frisco, TX, and the 2006 Asian Games Velodrome in Doha, Qatar, and Int’l Training Center in Sri Lanka. Closer to home, he has built tracks in Santa Rosa, Denver, Kalamazoo, Chicago, and Cleveland.

Dale and Christine have 3 sons, all of whom reside in the SE Michigan area. Their son Jon is the owner of the Downtown Ferndale Bike Shop, continuing the family tradition as a third generation bike shop owner and entrepreneur. Dale selflessly volunteers his time at the IVBP each day he is in town.