Barrettscv 

A good Cliff Notes summery of cycling in the 1920's

T-Mar

Yes, this moment may be viewed as the genesis of the Campagnolo company but the invention of the quick release had little impact at the time and Campagnolo would not become a major force until the 1950s. Most riders outside Italy clung to wing nuts. Even within Italy, the quick release was found primarily on bicycles equipped with Campagnolo's Cambio Corsa gear change mechanism and only then because it was an integral part of the sliding axle mechanism. That system was cumbersome and antiquated even in its day. Campagnolo needed something better and in 1950 released the Gran Sport parallelogram derailleur, which was heavily influenced by the Ghiggini parallelogram derailleur, whose patents he bought. This would be Campagnolo's first big commercial success and his 1st invention, the quick release, would piggy back on the Gran Sport's success to finally become a staple in the cycling industry, over two decades after its invention. Had it not been for Ghiggini, Campagnolo and his quick release may have faded into obscurity.

iab

Hold on there Hoss. The CC was invented in 1933 and was being raced no later than 1938, probably sooner. The competition was the Vittoria Margherita. In no way shape or form is the CC cumbersome or antiquated to the VM.

As for the Ghiggini having a "heavy" influence, have you ever heard the phrase 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration? That is what it takes to bring a successful product to market. I'd say the Ghiggini at best was 0.5% and the Nivex was another 0.5%.

As for fading into obscurity, help a brother out, ask your crystal ball for some winning lotto numbers for me.

Kovkov

Judging by some youtube videos, one can shift with it almost as fast as with a modern system.

T-Mar

I consider the prime contemporary for Campagnolo Cambio Corsa to be the post war Simplex push rod models, for the simple reason that Campagnolo's derailleur was not commercially available in any notable quantity prior to or during the war. Campagnolo didn't patent it until 1940, the same year he hired his first employee. Prior to that, he had been labouriously and personally manufacturing them, then demonstrating and maintaining them for teams whom he would persuade or pay to use them. I've seen circa 1938-1940 pre-war catalogues for several brands that used the Campagnolo derailleur on their team bicycles but the derailleur was not on the catalogued models. For all intents and purposes, they were racing prototypes used for research and development. So, while it didn't may have been invented in 1933, I consider it a post war derailleur in terms of public availability.

Comparing the operation of a post war Simplex to the Campagnolo is no contest. IMO, the Simplex wins, hands down. Granted, the Vittoria Margherita wasn't much easier to operate than the Campagnolo.

I don't know how much influence the Nivex had on the Gran Sport but there is no doubt about the Ghiggini, given that Campagnolo bought his patents. I also have no doubt that Campagnolo worked very hard to develop his products. However, in this case Campagnolo did not have the inspiration, he bought it from someone else and developed it. Without that inspiration where would Campagnolo have been? That's conjecture but it's not inconceivable that the company could have faded into obscurity, just like Vittoria. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

iab

So many things so wrong. Do you actually think Tullio was going at a block of steel with a file to supply his derailleur prewar? Not a chance. The VM is not standard in bike manufacturer catalogs either. By your "logic", it was also not available to the public. Is that your stance? Tullio hired someone in 1940 because he was giving away product for 10 years prior? A broke guy hires another?

Also, have you seen the Ghiggini patent drawings? If you actually built it, it wouldn't work, way too flimsy. It is only inspiration. Ghiggini couldn't follow through even if he wanted. And what is the Ghiggini patent? It is a simple 4-bar linkage. About as "groundbreaking" as the cam Tullio used for the quick release. It is not new now, it wasn't new then. Have you ever brought something to market? And he bought the patent so Simplex couldn't use it and was stuck making a crappy cone-spring crap for a decade.

Nope. Campagnolo knew how to innovate, the Nieduus knew how to beat a dead horse. There is nothing to disagree about, those are facts of product development.

I also like that you conveniently leave out developing a groupset.

iab

Clearly patented in 1933.

UK Patent 415,683 - Campagnolo scan 1

T-Mar

The subject patent only covers the sliding hub mechanism. It does not include any mechanism for derailing the chain, only giving vague suggestions in lines 85-93. Consequently, it's only a patent for a semi-automatic chain tensioner. It is is not a derailleur patent for the Cambio Corsa, as it only covers one of the two processes of a derailleur. I've read that Campagnolo only considered the sliding hub mechanism to be patentable and that this was the rationale for the limited scope of the patent. Yet, the 1943 patents on the Disraeli gears site define the derailing rod mechanism. Together the two patents define a Cambio Corsa, so I consider the patent date for a Cambio Corsa to be 1943.

There are extant pre-war bicycle catalogues where the Vittoria Margherita is listed as standard equipment on top
models. For example the 1937 Legnano catalog...

iab

Why did you skip lines 55-85? Combine that with 85-93, you have cambio corsa. The 1943 patent is what is called a continuation. The cambio corsa was standard equipment on Bianchi in 1940. If used in 1940, you cannot get a patent in 1943 after public disclosure. That's how patents work.

VM is not in the 1939 Ancora, 1938 Benotto, 1930 Bianchi, 1931 Bianchi, 1932 Bianchi, 1934 Bianchi, 1935 Bianchi, 1937 Bianchi, 1939 Bianchi, 1940 Bianchi, 1937 Frejus, 1938 Frejus, 1934 Ganna, 1938 Ganna, 1930 Legnano, 1932 Legnano, 1933 Legnano, 1934 Legnano, 1934 Maino, 1939 Olympia, 1936 Touring, 1937 Touring, 1938 Touring, 1935 Wolsit and 1936 Wolsit catalogs.

You see it in the 1936 Legnano, 1938 U. Dei and 1939 U. Dei. It is an exception to be standard equipment. And if you mistakenly think VM wasn't around much, below is World Champion Giuseppe Martano in 1932 and amuateur Gino Bartali in 1933.


Martano 1932 by iabisdb, on Flickr

Bartali 1933 by iabisdb, on Flickr

T-Mar

I didn't skip lines 55-85. All they do is describe what has to take when changing gears using a multiple cog freewheel. It does not include the design of an apparatus to perform the function, which is what constitutes a patent. The Campagnolo patent only defines the design of the sliding hub which provided semi-automatic chain tensioning for an undefined derailing device. Call the 1943 patent a continuation if you will but it's the earliest known patent to contain the design of Campagnolo's derailing apparatus.


The photos you've posted aren't of the Vittoria Margherita but its early 1930s predecessor, the Vittoria, which was a simple, manual chain tensing device. There is no evidence of a derailing mechanism, which in the Vittoria Margherita constituted two steel fingers on top of the back end of the chainstay.


You won't see the Vittoria Margherita prior to the late 1930s. However, I have seen the Vittoria in early 1930s catalogues, specifically Legnano. Regardless, the inclusion of the Vittoria and Vittoria Margherita products in the Dei and Legnano catalogs indicate that they were at least commercially available prior to the war. By contrast, no such evidence exists for the Campagnolo Cambio Corsa. At the very least, it would appear that the Vittoria products were more widely available and better accepted, at the time.


Another notable point regarding the photos is that both bicycles are using wing nuts, as opposed to Campagnolo's quick release. Again, this would seem to indicate that Campagnolo's quick release was not as revolutionary as is generally considered. It wasn't a mandatory feature on top amateur and professional racing bicycles, even in Italy, which was my original point.

iab

55-85 describe the notched dropouts and corresponding axle. It is also a British patent, not the original Italian. Also, you CANNOT get a patent if you publicly disclose the invention. How can you get a patent in 1943 if you are racing it by 1938?

First gen VM is nonetheless VM. And yes, if you use your fingers to move the chain, it is a derailleur. I should know, I do it when I ride my bike with it.

Cambio corsa is in the 1940 Bianchi catalog. Prior to Italy declaring war on anyone. And again, while VM was certainly available prewar, raced in the early 30s, you don't see it in catalogs. Are you saying it was not commercially available prior to 1936? How did it magically appear on Martano's and Bartali's bike?

What happened to Tullio was making no money for 7 years despite taking banner ads for his derailleur in 1933 and later in the top sporting newspaper in Italy?

iab

CICLISMO in "Enciclopedia dello Sport"

The relevant section.

Il 25 ottobre 1931, nel Giro di Lombardia, il piccolo scalatore Barral non scende di bici per cambiare rapporto all'attacco del Ghisallo: monta un cambio ideato dai fratelli Nieddu a Torino. Il cambio Vittoria, di Amedeo e Tommaso Nieddu, si afferma al Giro del 1932. Con una ruota libera a tripla corona viene adottato anche da tutta la squadra azzurra ai Campionati del Mondo di Rocca di Papa: i trionfi di Binda, tra i professionisti, e di Martano, tra i dilettanti, contribuiscono a lanciarlo.
È un momento di grandi novità per i materiali. Con il cambio Vittoria bisogna spostare la catena a mano da un pignone all'altro, ma il 4 maggio 1933 Tullio Campagnolo brevetta il suo famoso cambio a bacchetta. Anche le novità della tecnologia risentono dei tempi: così i torinesi Nieddu, nel 1934, mettono in commercio il cambio Dux.

martl

Disappointing video. a nice idea turned into a clown show. "We all know old bikes are unrideable, so lats crack a few lame jokes about it and get it done" - a pity, because a more informed comparison between riding back then (using an actual vintage bike instead of this frankenbike) and now could have been fun. Of course, they would need a presenter who tries less hard to be a poor man's Jeremy Clarkson and is familiar with riding with toestraps.

Sorry if i sound angry, but i am. I like CGN. They could have done better.

noglider 

I enjoyed the video, as I usually enjoy them. They are a lot of theater and not a lot of information. Once you know that, you can have fun.

SamSpade1941 

I agree with that statement, after watching the “build” of that Elswick I cringed . No inspection/repack of the headset and bottom bracket at all and the same of the brakes . I wouldn’t let none of those GCN monkeys touch a bike I own , and yes I’m sure they know they proper way to go about it.

However I was raised with the do it right or don’t do it philosophy at home and professionally. Others mileage may vary ..

T-Mar

The toothed dropouts and corresponding axle are the part of the sliding hub mechanism. It is what provides the chain tension function. It does not move the chain from one cog to then other. In my opinion, a derailleur is a device that moves the chain from one cog to another AND tensions the chain. The 1933 Campagnolo patent only covers a design that performs one of these function. Consequently, in my opinion, it does not constitute a derailleur. Obviously we have disparate views on what constitutes a derailleur.

While the patent is British, I doubt the derailing mechanism was lost in translation. Normally, the design of the derailing mechanism would be included in an illustration, of which there is none.

To the best of my knowledge there is no requirement to "get" a patent prior to public disclosure, Certainly, it's prudent to apply for a patent prior to marketing or publicly displaying a product, so that your idea is not patented by someone else. I know there is a current requirement to apply for a patent within 1 year of public disclosure. What is current law may not have been applicable during the inter-war period and/or in foreign countries. The 1943 French patent states that it's the French version of an Italian patent filed April 22, 1943.

It's always been my understanding that the Nieddu brothers first product, the chain tension device, was called the Vittoria (i.e. your verison 1) and when the derailing mechanism was added, only then did it became the Vittoria Margherita (i.e. your version 2).

By you logic, if can use you fingers to move the chain, then you can also use your fingers to tension the chain and any bicycle with more than one cog can be considered to have a derailleur, even if there is no mechanism that performs either function. With all due respect, I don't buy into that rationale.

Thank-you for pointing out that the Cambio Corsa is included in the 1940 Bianchi catalogue. It's good to know that the Cambio Corsa was marketed prior to Italy's declaration of war, even if it was only by months. Still, I doubt many were sold during this period or the war.

I'm saying that what I consider to be the Margherita (ie. your 2nd version) wasn't commercially available until around that time. That's the earliest catalogue that I've found it in. It was probably commercially available earlier but a Legnano catalogue that's no earlier than 1934 show's it's Vittoria predecessor (ie. your version 1), so the Margherita appears to have had it's commercial debut in 1935 or 1936. That fits pretty well with the August 1934 application for the French patent.

While the Vittoria may have been available earlier than 1934, I have yet to find any catalogues from that period that include it. The brand most likely to have spec'd it was Legnano, but it's not in their 1931 literature, despite a November 1930 Italian patent application. I haven't seen Legnano catalogues for 1932 or 1933 and it may be in one of them. It would certainly make sense to capitalize on it for 1933, after Binda used one to win the 1932 World Championships. Racers, even top amateurs, may have been given copies prior to it going to market, especially if they were representing Italy at a prestigious event, like the World Championships.

I never said he wasn't making any money. I just said that the pre-war version of the Cambio Corsa were basically prototypes being R&D's by the race teams. There would have been some money coming in from the contract manufactured hubsets. But with no employees, no prestigious race wins to capitalize on and no evidence of it being spec'd on brands prior to the 1940 Bianchi Folgore, I doubt you could get one through the LBS. It's probably not co-incidental that his hiring of his first employee co-incides with the earliest evidence of a contact with bicycle brand.

iab

And this is why you have no idea what it takes to develop and market anything.

iab

It is. Otherwise it is regarded as prior art. If you have a complete ignorance of product development, why do you comment?

iab

How exactly is that done? Really? Draw me a picture please. Use your vast product development skills.

iab

I'm sure Tullio's employee was paid with ifs and buts.

iab

So you didn't read what I posted. 1934. Whoops.

iab

And you know this how? Do you bother with reading. What team did Barral ride for in '31? Here's a hint, it ain't Legnano.

iab

If he wasn't making money on the quick release and he wasn't making money from the CC, did he have a money tree?

I'm so done with your made-up bull****. Either cite a source or pretend to think you know something.

T-Mar

I had a feeling that the discussion would degrade to this level, which is why I had proposed an "agree to disagree" solution, earlier in this thread.

mgopack42 

Thought I would add this to the discussion. Monument to Tullio in Croce d'Aune, IT. Taken while there two weeks ago to see the penultimate stage of il Giro. Not my picture, the crowds were too great to try to cross the road, but taken by one of my tour mates. It was quite the experience to descend from there to Pedavena with literally thousands of other cyclists. It seems to get there you either needed to live there, or ride your bike up to the pass. We had a beer at a brewery across the street from the team bus parking lot. It was crazy seeing the pros have to ride with the masses from the finish to the team bus. All in all, it was easy to see why the Italians have a reputation of thriving on chaos.