Tripple vs Double chainring.
#76
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Only for some. Don’t blame the tool.
No. I don’t know. I’m a long time volunteer at my local co-op. I see hundreds... possibly thousands... of triples per year. I send that same number of triples out the door without rubbing issues per year. They often go out the door shifting better than they did when they came out of a retail shop.
I have observed some things that can make for better success when setting up and tuning a triple, however. First and foremost is choosing the proper front derailer. Shimano’s front derailers aren’t as good as they should be. Shimano’s engineers have added all kinds of channels, sculpting and chain lift structures to their derailers, especially the more expensive ones. 105, Ultegra, Durace, XT, and XTR are all more difficult to set up than the lower line derailers because of all the special features Shimano has put in them. Tiagra, Sora, Clairis, Deore, Alivio, etc. are all far better front derailers. They are easier to set up and accommodate a wider range of gearing than their more expensive brethren.
Or just use SRAM fronts. They work with Shimano shifters (at least to 9 speed) and they are far better mechanisms.
you know.
I have observed some things that can make for better success when setting up and tuning a triple, however. First and foremost is choosing the proper front derailer. Shimano’s front derailers aren’t as good as they should be. Shimano’s engineers have added all kinds of channels, sculpting and chain lift structures to their derailers, especially the more expensive ones. 105, Ultegra, Durace, XT, and XTR are all more difficult to set up than the lower line derailers because of all the special features Shimano has put in them. Tiagra, Sora, Clairis, Deore, Alivio, etc. are all far better front derailers. They are easier to set up and accommodate a wider range of gearing than their more expensive brethren.
Or just use SRAM fronts. They work with Shimano shifters (at least to 9 speed) and they are far better mechanisms.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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#77
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Thread Starter
cyccommute.
How does Shimano's Altus front derailleur rate.
That's what Giant put on my 2018 Sedona, And for the most part seems to be fine, At least for recreational riders. I find if I overshoot the small to middle chainring shift I have few problems with it. I've never had a problem of it rubbing.
I tried it climbing a steep hill and found shifting the 2 lowest gears on my Shimano Megarange cassette to be more effective, as I get a quicker, more consistent shift, and a slightly bigger jump/drop vs shifting to the small chainring. I really didn't think I'd like the Megarange cassette. I thought a more even spacing was best.
How does Shimano's Altus front derailleur rate.
That's what Giant put on my 2018 Sedona, And for the most part seems to be fine, At least for recreational riders. I find if I overshoot the small to middle chainring shift I have few problems with it. I've never had a problem of it rubbing.
I tried it climbing a steep hill and found shifting the 2 lowest gears on my Shimano Megarange cassette to be more effective, as I get a quicker, more consistent shift, and a slightly bigger jump/drop vs shifting to the small chainring. I really didn't think I'd like the Megarange cassette. I thought a more even spacing was best.
Last edited by xroadcharlie; 06-09-19 at 09:44 AM.
#78
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Only for some. Don’t blame the tool.
No. I don’t know. I’m a long time volunteer at my local co-op. I see hundreds... possibly thousands... of triples per year. I send that same number of triples out the door without rubbing issues per year. They often go out the door shifting better than they did when they came out of a retail shop.
I have observed some things that can make for better success when setting up and tuning a triple, however. First and foremost is choosing the proper front derailer. Shimano’s front derailers aren’t as good as they should be. Shimano’s engineers have added all kinds of channels, sculpting and chain lift structures to their derailers, especially the more expensive ones. 105, Ultegra, Durace, XT, and XTR are all more difficult to set up than the lower line derailers because of all the special features Shimano has put in them. Tiagra, Sora, Clairis, Deore, Alivio, etc. are all far better front derailers. They are easier to set up and accommodate a wider range of gearing than their more expensive brethren.
Or just use SRAM fronts. They work with Shimano shifters (at least to 9 speed) and they are far better mechanisms.
No. I don’t know. I’m a long time volunteer at my local co-op. I see hundreds... possibly thousands... of triples per year. I send that same number of triples out the door without rubbing issues per year. They often go out the door shifting better than they did when they came out of a retail shop.
I have observed some things that can make for better success when setting up and tuning a triple, however. First and foremost is choosing the proper front derailer. Shimano’s front derailers aren’t as good as they should be. Shimano’s engineers have added all kinds of channels, sculpting and chain lift structures to their derailers, especially the more expensive ones. 105, Ultegra, Durace, XT, and XTR are all more difficult to set up than the lower line derailers because of all the special features Shimano has put in them. Tiagra, Sora, Clairis, Deore, Alivio, etc. are all far better front derailers. They are easier to set up and accommodate a wider range of gearing than their more expensive brethren.
Or just use SRAM fronts. They work with Shimano shifters (at least to 9 speed) and they are far better mechanisms.
#80
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cyccommute.
How does Shimano's Altus front derailleur rate.
That's what Giant put on my 2018 Sedona, And for the most part seems to be fine, At least for recreational riders. I find if I overshoot the small to middle chainring shift I have few problems with it. I've never had a problem of it rubbing.
I tried it climbing a steep hill and found shifting the 2 lowest gears on my Shimano Megarange cassette to be more effective, as I get a quicker, more consistent shift, and a slightly bigger jump/drop vs shifting to the small chainring. I really didn't think I'd like the Megarange cassette. I thought a more even spacing was best.
How does Shimano's Altus front derailleur rate.
That's what Giant put on my 2018 Sedona, And for the most part seems to be fine, At least for recreational riders. I find if I overshoot the small to middle chainring shift I have few problems with it. I've never had a problem of it rubbing.
I tried it climbing a steep hill and found shifting the 2 lowest gears on my Shimano Megarange cassette to be more effective, as I get a quicker, more consistent shift, and a slightly bigger jump/drop vs shifting to the small chainring. I really didn't think I'd like the Megarange cassette. I thought a more even spacing was best.
The Megarange is a work around. It’s meant to basically have a bailout low gear with a workable lower range. The large step is necessary because there aren’t enough gears for the smoother transition for lower gears like a 9 to 12 speed cassette gives. You could get a better gearing system but it would require some (slightly) major changes to the bike. It’s likely that your crank is riveted which means you can’t just change the chainring. If you could change the chainring, you could replace the inner one with a 22 tooth and replace the freewheel (it’s not a cassette) with a 14-28 freewheel which would give you a similar low gear but a better shift pattern. This comparison shows the new system.
If you have co-op near you, you might be able to find a used mountain bike crank which would allow you to change the gearing rather cheaply.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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#82
Senior Member
I certainly don't see how the friction shifting itself would be a culprit. In my experience, flawless indexed front shifting is generally still flawless when used with a friction shifter, and friction shifting can allow all kinds of crazy setups that would never work with indexed shifters to behave somewhat reasonably. Like half-step-plus-granny arrangements, or those absurdly wide-range doubles like 44-20 that "shift fine" according to the people who use them.
Everything crank or chainring made since about 1995 has shifting ramps and pins which make shifts on doubles or triple trivial.
Ramps are also only a consideration when a factory-standard gear combo is being used; unmatched shift gates in custom setups don't seem to accomplish much of anything in my experience.
The return springs in derailers are far stronger than they used to be as well.
That's not an issue which actually affects me very much, though... on my ride yesterday I had a moment where I was chasing an ex-pro up a steep hill*, and even there, that front downshift was snappy and clean. Amusingly, I actually had more trouble with my rear shifting: the switch from the 24T to the 28T on my TZ20 freewheel clanked a couple times under the strain before completing.
But, I suppose that it could be a big problem for someone with poor technique, who doesn't shift until the cadence has already badly bottomed out.
*There's a segment that contains the rise that averages about a 4% gradient where we averaged just under 17mph, and his power meter was clocking a sustained 550W on the steep bit, so I was pedaling pretty hard.
Not to say that I'm a particularly strong cyclist... this guy was cruising along at those intensities on a 50-mile ride, I only rode along with him for about 10 minutes. One of many interesting pieces of a whacky 109-mile road adventure.
Last edited by HTupolev; 06-09-19 at 09:53 PM.
#83
Senior Member
Depends on the ride, but there have been times where I wanted a lot more than that.
The 305% range on my 70s Fuji was mostly adequate for yesterday's ride, since even though it was very long, it didn't go into many very aggressive hills. The 34-28 low gear was always comfortable (but only just), while the 52-14 top gear started to get slightly strained a little on a shallow descent where a very strong cyclist at the front was absolutely hammering.
For rides that venture into the gravel roads of the Cascades foothills, I want a much lower bottom gear. Significantly sub-1:1. I could climb most of those hills on 34-28, but when I'm faced with a mile of loose rocks at a 12% gradient, I'm much faster and fatigue much less on an itsy-bitsy gear.
Obviously that kind of low-end is doable with a double, but if I also want classic road gearing with a high top-end and tight spacing on the same bike at the same time, a triple makes that much more doable.
Loaded touring is another situation where a super-wide range is desirable. If I've been riding into headwinds for the last 90 miles, and suddenly a 16% hill shows up, and I don't want to burn my legs up (because I'm going to go over a big mountain pass on the next day and the next and have another big ride the next day after that), I'm going to want some very small gears. And again, I'm road riding, so I don't want 18% gaps between all my gears.
The 305% range on my 70s Fuji was mostly adequate for yesterday's ride, since even though it was very long, it didn't go into many very aggressive hills. The 34-28 low gear was always comfortable (but only just), while the 52-14 top gear started to get slightly strained a little on a shallow descent where a very strong cyclist at the front was absolutely hammering.
For rides that venture into the gravel roads of the Cascades foothills, I want a much lower bottom gear. Significantly sub-1:1. I could climb most of those hills on 34-28, but when I'm faced with a mile of loose rocks at a 12% gradient, I'm much faster and fatigue much less on an itsy-bitsy gear.
Obviously that kind of low-end is doable with a double, but if I also want classic road gearing with a high top-end and tight spacing on the same bike at the same time, a triple makes that much more doable.
Loaded touring is another situation where a super-wide range is desirable. If I've been riding into headwinds for the last 90 miles, and suddenly a 16% hill shows up, and I don't want to burn my legs up (because I'm going to go over a big mountain pass on the next day and the next and have another big ride the next day after that), I'm going to want some very small gears. And again, I'm road riding, so I don't want 18% gaps between all my gears.
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#84
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Honestly, the Altus works well. It may be low end but it is easier to set up than the higher end derailers.
The Megarange is a work around. It’s meant to basically have a bailout low gear with a workable lower range. The large step is necessary because there aren’t enough gears for the smoother transition for lower gears like a 9 to 12 speed cassette gives. You could get a better gearing system but it would require some (slightly) major changes to the bike. It’s likely that your crank is riveted which means you can’t just change the chainring. If you could change the chainring, you could replace the inner one with a 22 tooth and replace the freewheel (it’s not a cassette) with a 14-28 freewheel which would give you a similar low gear but a better shift pattern. This comparison shows the new system.
If you have co-op near you, you might be able to find a used mountain bike crank which would allow you to change the gearing rather cheaply.
The Megarange is a work around. It’s meant to basically have a bailout low gear with a workable lower range. The large step is necessary because there aren’t enough gears for the smoother transition for lower gears like a 9 to 12 speed cassette gives. You could get a better gearing system but it would require some (slightly) major changes to the bike. It’s likely that your crank is riveted which means you can’t just change the chainring. If you could change the chainring, you could replace the inner one with a 22 tooth and replace the freewheel (it’s not a cassette) with a 14-28 freewheel which would give you a similar low gear but a better shift pattern. This comparison shows the new system.
If you have co-op near you, you might be able to find a used mountain bike crank which would allow you to change the gearing rather cheaply.
Bingo on the riveted chainrings too.
As you can see on the chart, The biggest gap is from the two lowest gears. I have found very few situations around here with mostly short hills that require any less then the 30 gear inches the 28/24 combo provides, and the available steps to 89 gear inches (which I seldom use) using the 3 chainrings are reasonable IMO.
I was also looking at Giant's handsome Cypress 7 speed bike with it's 34 - 83 GI range, Which is enough for my needs, but with only one chainring and the big jump from 1'st to 2'nd of 34 to 48 GI on the Megarange freewheel is way too high before the steps are more reasonable, even for a recreational rider.
Last edited by xroadcharlie; 06-10-19 at 12:07 AM.
#85
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I've been running triples for 45 years. Many had rub. Some of them I set up intentionally so they rubbed. (Before ChainWatchers, that stopped a lot of deraillments.)
I'm still wondering what is the crisis that rub causes. Is it leading folks with sensitive ears to deafness? Insanity? Are there laws against rub I don't know about? Yeah, it does wear out FD cages but on quality FDs with substantial cages, that takes quite a while. And that wear is very easy to check. Are front derailleurs an endangered species? (That might be it! With 1X, we need to protect every living one.)
I guess I will have to keep studying this issue unless someone here can help me.
Ben
I'm still wondering what is the crisis that rub causes. Is it leading folks with sensitive ears to deafness? Insanity? Are there laws against rub I don't know about? Yeah, it does wear out FD cages but on quality FDs with substantial cages, that takes quite a while. And that wear is very easy to check. Are front derailleurs an endangered species? (That might be it! With 1X, we need to protect every living one.)
I guess I will have to keep studying this issue unless someone here can help me.
Ben
#87
Banned.
I read a lot of this thread an here is my totally worthless opinion.
It's like vitamin supplements. If you are taking them there is no reason to stop, if not, no reason to start. If you have a triple there is no reason to sell it if not there is no reason to buy one.
It's like vitamin supplements. If you are taking them there is no reason to stop, if not, no reason to start. If you have a triple there is no reason to sell it if not there is no reason to buy one.
#88
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I dunno, things like "rub" get mentioned a lot which makes no sense in a friction-shifted context. And if you get much before 1990, there's almost nothing triple-specific going on, since neither shift gates nor interestingly-sculpted front derailleurs existed.
I certainly don't see how the friction shifting itself would be a culprit. In my experience, flawless indexed front shifting is generally still flawless when used with a friction shifter, and friction shifting can allow all kinds of crazy setups that would never work with indexed shifters to behave somewhat reasonably. Like half-step-plus-granny arrangements, or those absurdly wide-range doubles like 44-20 that "shift fine" according to the people who use them.
I certainly don't see how the friction shifting itself would be a culprit. In my experience, flawless indexed front shifting is generally still flawless when used with a friction shifter, and friction shifting can allow all kinds of crazy setups that would never work with indexed shifters to behave somewhat reasonably. Like half-step-plus-granny arrangements, or those absurdly wide-range doubles like 44-20 that "shift fine" according to the people who use them.
By the way, I'm one of those people with what most would consider a crazy set up like a 44/34/20 for mountain biking and a 48/36/20 for a touring bike. But I'm using index systems on both mountain and road bikes. Shifts are never a problem in any situation I've run across.
II'm wonder how much the shift ramps have to do with it, given the typically small size of shifts on triples. I've got multiple unramped triple setups in my stable that shift flawlessly.
Ramps are also only a consideration when a factory-standard gear combo is being used; unmatched shift gates in custom setups don't seem to accomplish much of anything in my experience.
Ramps are also only a consideration when a factory-standard gear combo is being used; unmatched shift gates in custom setups don't seem to accomplish much of anything in my experience.
IThis probably does matter. One of my drivetrains is running a 1970s Sugino Mighty Tour triple, currently fitted with 52-42-34 chainrings, with a 1970s straight-cage Suntour Cyclone front derailleur. The middle-to-small shift can be a little baulky if the upper run of the chain is kept under high tension.
That's not an issue which actually affects me very much, though... on my ride yesterday I had a moment where I was chasing an ex-pro up a steep hill*, and even there, that front downshift was snappy and clean. Amusingly, I actually had more trouble with my rear shifting: the switch from the 24T to the 28T on my TZ20 freewheel clanked a couple times under the strain before completing.
But, I suppose that it could be a big problem for someone with poor technique, who doesn't shift until the cadence has already badly bottomed out.
*There's a segment that contains the rise that averages about a 4% gradient where we averaged just under 17mph, and his power meter was clocking a sustained 550W on the steep bit, so I was pedaling pretty hard.
Not to say that I'm a particularly strong cyclist... this guy was cruising along at those intensities on a 50-mile ride, I only rode along with him for about 10 minutes. One of many interesting pieces of a whacky 109-mile road adventure.
That's not an issue which actually affects me very much, though... on my ride yesterday I had a moment where I was chasing an ex-pro up a steep hill*, and even there, that front downshift was snappy and clean. Amusingly, I actually had more trouble with my rear shifting: the switch from the 24T to the 28T on my TZ20 freewheel clanked a couple times under the strain before completing.
But, I suppose that it could be a big problem for someone with poor technique, who doesn't shift until the cadence has already badly bottomed out.
*There's a segment that contains the rise that averages about a 4% gradient where we averaged just under 17mph, and his power meter was clocking a sustained 550W on the steep bit, so I was pedaling pretty hard.
Not to say that I'm a particularly strong cyclist... this guy was cruising along at those intensities on a 50-mile ride, I only rode along with him for about 10 minutes. One of many interesting pieces of a whacky 109-mile road adventure.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#89
Cycleway town
I find chainrings are far more a critical factor in front shifting than the derailleur. Good pick-up points matched to the chain, and pretty much any derailleur will work well as long as it's not wildly out on size or adjustment.
Steel chainrings can have wilder pick-up shapes, resulting in a more secure shift. And usually do.
Steel chainrings can have wilder pick-up shapes, resulting in a more secure shift. And usually do.
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#90
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I find chainrings are far more a critical factor in front shifting than the derailleur. Good pick-up points matched to the chain, and pretty much any derailleur will work well as long as it's not wildly out on size or adjustment.
Steel chainrings can have wilder pick-up shapes, resulting in a more secure shift. And usually do.
Steel chainrings can have wilder pick-up shapes, resulting in a more secure shift. And usually do.
That said, the most useless of front derailers that Shimano has ever made is the SHIMANO XTR FD-M952 carbon fiber e-type. It looks really cool but it functions really horribly. The carbon fiber plate is too flexible and it bends during shifting which means that it bends back when not being shifted and the bike drops the chain to the next inner ring. Just pulling with the cable can make it go through about a 6mm arc. It alone could have killed triples!
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#91
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Update on my above post. I did my first longish ride on the '78 Super Course with the Sakae 52/42 double and a 34t 6 speed Megarange. On a 44 mile Malibu run, I had a 17.2 mph personal best average. My other Super Course has an identical drivetrain, except for the Suginio AT 50 /40/32 triple. I've ridden it several times on that ride, but yesterday's ride was the fastest. Not scientific, might have been a great tail wind, or trying to keep up with the aluminum and carboned other riders, but what a great day on the bike. I've always been a triple guy, but my last two builds have been doubles, and as long as you don't carry a lot of weight, or do big hills, I'm liking the double's crisper shifting, and think I may try a 52t on the Super Course triple and see what happens. The two biggish hills yesterday were doable with the 34t rear and 42t front ring. I built the other SC with a triple and Megarange 34t for Eroica, and still walked three hills!
#92
Senior Member
Here's one setup on the stand, but it works pretty much the same on the road:
By the way, I'm one of those people with what most would consider a crazy set up like a 44/34/20 for mountain biking and a 48/36/20 for a touring bike.
The really challenging triples are things like 50-46-28, or 50-32-28, where you can't really position an FD so that all of the four possible shifts are handled in a sensible way.
#93
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I find chainrings are far more a critical factor in front shifting than the derailleur. Good pick-up points matched to the chain, and pretty much any derailleur will work well as long as it's not wildly out on size or adjustment.
Steel chainrings can have wilder pick-up shapes, resulting in a more secure shift. And usually do.
Steel chainrings can have wilder pick-up shapes, resulting in a more secure shift. And usually do.
That makes perfect sense now that you mention it. The chainrings on my Suntour XCC crankset are steel. And despite being a low end Crankset and derailleur, This combination seems to work surprisingly well.
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